801.11n routers

[CStenfors]

Hi all, newcomer here.

I'm interested in FIOS, but my current home network is 801.11n (or is that 802.11n? I'm suddenly confused) based.

From everything I can see FIOS routers are only b/g protocols, which are substantially slower. Since I have quite a bit of wireless networking (and potential interference on the 2.4Ghz band) this seems to be a bit of a problem.

Since I have wireless mice/keyboards on two of my 3 computers, wireless speakers on my one TV, I'm routing files from a media server and have Windows Home server and a wireless printer I really, really would like the bulk of my Internet to be in the 5.4Ghz band.

I'd appreciate any observations you guys might have.

Thanks.

[Knightro2]

You don't have to use the wireless on the Verizon provided router. You can connect your own router to their router and use the wireless. You HAVE to use their router as the primary router due to how the DVRs and STBs communicate.

A forum member, BrianMcD, gave me this info for doing this with my Linksys as a test for a different issue I had.

"Assuming that your Westell is configured with an internal address of 192.168.1.1, configure the Linksys so that it has an Local Address of 192.168.1.2.  You will also want to disable the DHCP Server on the Linksys and change it from Gateway Mode to Router Mode."

[CStenfors]

Ok, that makes sense, however, I'm currently with Time-Warner Cable (roadRunner) and they won't support routers other than the ones they provide. I can see why, since the firmware allows them more extensive diagnostics than the out-of-the-box routers, but it is a royal PITA. Every time I have a problem (and there was a time that I had lots) I had to disconnect my  router and do a direct-connect to their modem.

Wo will Verizon troubleshoot connection problems behind a non-Verizon router?

[Knightro2]

That is beyond my knowledge. Hopefully someone will chime in if they know.

[Hubrisnxs]

"Wo will Verizon troubleshoot connection problems behind a non-Verizon router?"

No they won't

[spacedebris]

No, Verizon will not support anything other than the router they supply. Most companies dont.

However, connecting another router to the verizon router for internal networking is not all that difficult. Mostly you just have to make sure that the routers are on different networks.

What kind of n router do you have?  Linksys, D-link, Netgear?  Do you know its IP?

[BrianMcD]

You can avoid a Double NAT Situation and have both routers on the same network.  Just configure the Verizon Router as 192.168.1.1 and your other router as 192.168.1.2 and do a Lan Port 1 to Lan Port 1 connection.

[stnickt]

Brian,

Can you explain a "Lan Port 1 to Lan Port 1" connection and how to set that up?

i currently have a Verizon Router with a static NAT going to a linksys wireless N router.

I have the rest of my network (desktop switch, server, ps3, network storage, wireless N laptops) on the linksys router.

currently i have set up:

RDP to server (working)

ftp to server (working)

http to server (NOT working) - when i access the http from outside the network (my home) it automatically goes into the verizon router remote management on port 80 (and 8080). I would like to keep remote management on 8080, but have port 80 directed to my server (this i cannot accomplish)

suggestions?

Thanks

[dslr595148]

---

currently i have set up:

RDP to server (working)

ftp to server (working)

http to server (NOT working) - when i access the http from outside the network (my home) it automatically goes into the verizon router remote management on port 80 (and 8080). I would like to keep remote management on 8080, but have port 80 directed to my server (this i cannot accomplish)

suggestions?

Thanks

---

#1 When behind this router, go to http://network-tools.com/

#2 It will have your public IP, since you connected to that site.

#3 Select HTTP Headers.

#4 Press Go.

#5 Do you see any headers back?

If so...

b) Are they the headers from the router?

b) Or they the headers from the web server that you are running?

#6 If headers from the router, what router?

[stnickt]

here is what i got back after selecting headers

FollowRedirects=False; Server requested redirection

Header are:

HTTP/1.0 302 Moved Temporarily

Content-Type: text/html

Set-Cookie: cookie_session_id_0=1029085690; path=/;

Cache-Control: public

Pragma: cache

Expires: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:37:42 GMT

Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:07:42 GMT

Last-Modified: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:17:56 GMT

Accept-Ranges: bytes

Connection: close

Location: http://EXTIPADDRESS:80/index.cgi?active%5fpage=9090&req%5fmode=0

[dslr595148]

#1 I know the brand of one of your routers is a Linksy. What is the model of it?

#2 Go get idserve.exe from http://www.grc.com/id/idserve.htm

#3 With that program, tell it the LAN IP where the web server is.

#4 Do you get the same headers back? In the meantime while I wait for your reply, something tells me you will.

This the headers, that I got back from my router(s)..

#1

---

Connecting to the server on standard HTTP port: 80
[Connected]  Requesting the server's default page.
The server returned the following response headers:
HTTP/1.0 401 Unauthorized Access Denied
Server: Intoto Http Server v1.0
WWW-Authenticate: Basic realm="WRT54G"
Content-type: text/html
Pragma: no-cache
Connection: Close
Query complete.

---

#2

---

Initiating server query ...
Looking up the domain name for IP: 192.168.1.1
(The domain name for the specified IP address could not be found.)
Connecting to the server on standard HTTP port: 80
[Connected]  Requesting the server's default page.
The server returned the following response headers:
HTTP/1.0 401 Unauthorized
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:41:38 GMT
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Cache-Control: no-cache, no-store, must-revalidate, private
Expires: Thu, 31 Dec 1970 00:00:00 GMT
Pragma: no-cache
WWW-Authenticate: Basic realm="tomato"
Connection: close
The server's response did not contain the expected  'Server:'  header to identify itself.  Therefore, server's identity can not be determined.
Query complete.

---

[stnickt]

this is showing port 80 okay

Initiating server query ...

Looking up the domain name for IP: .

10.10.1.101

The domain name for the IP address is:

server

Connecting to the server on standard HTTP port:

80

[Connected]

Requesting the server's default page.

HTTP/1.1 200 OK

Content-Type: text/html

Last-Modified: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:21:01 GMT

Accept-Ranges: bytes

ETag: "50ab1351bc28ca1:0"

Server: Microsoft-IIS/7.0

X-Powered-By: ASP.NET

Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:21:36 GMT

Connection: close

Content-Length: 689

Query complete.

[dslr595148]

Ok.

With most Linksks, go to Administration -> Management.

Either

a) turn off that feature.

b) OR change the remote port to something else. Such as port 8080.

Press save changes.

If you changed the port to 8080 or disabled remote accesss, make sure that the HTTP headers at that site are the same as the HTTP Headers that you see in ID Serve.

And then when you want to get to remote access to the router, type in the public IP and the port number. For example: 208.74.256.257:8080

^^

If not using a Linksys, what is the exact brand and model of this router? Someone said Trendnet. But that is only the brand..

[stnickt]

so i think that worked..here are the headers i get back from both idserve and the website you provided

I tried to access from work and was able to get to:

Server website - http://IPADDRESS

Lynksys Router - http://IPADDRESS:8181

I wasnt able to access my Verizon Router Management (on port 8080) and the verizon router doesnt allow me to specify a different port (only 80 and 8080) and 80 is designated to the server site. But i dont exactly need that.

Thanks for all of your help..i would have never figured this out

ID Serve:
Initiating server query ...
Looking up IP address for domain:
server
The IP address for the domain is:
10.10.1.101
Connecting to the server on standard HTTP port:
80
[Connected]
Requesting the server's default page.
The server returned the following response headers:
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: text/html
Last-Modified: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:51:40 GMT
Accept-Ranges: bytes
ETag: "f0e7df468262ca1:0"
Server: Microsoft-IIS/7.0
X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:01:35 GMT
Connection: close
Content-Length: 58
Query complete.
 
 
 
http://network-tools.com/default.asp?prog=httphead&host=IPADDRESS
Header are:
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: text/html
ETag: "f0e7df468262ca1:0"
X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
Content-Length: 58
Last-Modified: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:51:40 GMT

[dslr595148]

One more test just to be sure.

#1 In the router stop forwarding to the web server or temporary stop the server.

#2 Then check the header from the outside.

#3 If that fails as I suspect it will, in the router forward the ports to the web server (or if you temporary stopped the server, restart it).

#4 That company who made that router where you type in the public IP and got access to the router - instead of the web server on your computer - is techically breaking the rules. Remote control of the router is turned off, but yet you can get access to the router using the public IP.

IF you check the headers from the outside after in the router stop forwarding to the web server or temporary stop the server, then the router really does have remote access in the router turned on - and it does not honor your settings. Then you must find out why, and how to fix that. A possible answer to how to fix that, upgrade the firmware.

[stnickt]

When Verizon Router is off....i get TIMED OUT error

Below are the headers when server is off, and remote management on both routers is ON

FollowRedirects=False; Server requested redirection

Header are:

HTTP/1.0 302 Moved Temporarily
Content-Type: text/html
Set-Cookie: cookie_session_id_0=928402626; path=/;
Cache-Control: public
Pragma: cache
Expires: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:14:44 GMT
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:44:44 GMT
Last-Modified: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:17:56 GMT
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Connection: close
Location: http://IPADDRESS:80/index.cgi?active%5fpage=9090&req%5fmode=0

If verizon remote management is on port 80..it connects. but if the server is on 80 goes to the server.

if verizon remote management in on port 8080...it does not connect (80 still goes to server just fine)

Linksys works either way on port 8181. Verizon doesnt allow for anything other than 80 or 8080, so i cant specify something else

I didnt keep any of the original login/passwords for either router (i created my own as well as WPA security for wireless). I have double nat set up, but i think it would be better to have nat set up on verizon to push through to the linksys and from there, only do port forward to the server (linksys is much easier to do port forwarding on than the verizon router)

[viafax999]

Sorry, I'm not sure who you are replying to, you may want to try using Quote to differentiate.  I have no idea what the headers you are talking about refer to.

OR  if my simplistic approach to your problem confuses you, you can just tell me to go away.

[dslr595148]

---

@stnickt wrote:

When Verizon Router is off....i get TIMED OUT error

Below are the headers when server is off, and remote management on both routers is ON

FollowRedirects=False; Server requested redirection

Header are:

HTTP/1.0 302 Moved Temporarily
Content-Type: text/html
Set-Cookie: cookie_session_id_0=928402626; path=/;
Cache-Control: public
Pragma: cache
Expires: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:14:44 GMT
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:44:44 GMT
Last-Modified: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:17:56 GMT
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Connection: close
Location: http://IPADDRESS:80/index.cgi?active%5fpage=9090&req%5fmode=0

If verizon remote management is on port 80..it connects. but if the server is on 80 goes to the server.

if verizon remote management in on port 8080...it does not connect (80 still goes to server just fine)

Linksys works either way on port 8181. Verizon doesnt allow for anything other than 80 or 8080, so i cant specify something else

I didnt keep any of the original login/passwords for either router (i created my own as well as WPA security for wireless). I have double nat set up, but i think it would be better to have nat set up on verizon to push through to the linksys and from there, only do port forward to the server (linksys is much easier to do port forwarding on than the verizon router)

---

Ok.

#1 I point to http://www.dslreports.com/faq/16077

a) You can put the Verizon router into bridge mode.

b) You can put the Verizon router behind the Linksys.

c) You can DMZ in the Verizon router the Linksys.

d) You could replace the Verizon router with some sort of MoCa/NI device..

While at that DSLR FAQ they talk about the NIM-100, but in my thread at http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23225235-NIM100-question

..They say you can get some other MoCA (NIM like) device.

#2 And there has got to be a way to turn off remote control in the router.

a) Show a screen shot from the router where remote management in the Verizon router is.

Please if you edit the screen shot, only hide the public IP.

b) I have to wonder if they (Verizon) routers use JavaScript to hide certain menu(s). For example, as addressed in

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23215089-Time-Warner-Cable-Exposes-65000-Routers-to-Remote-Attacks

^

[viafax999]

---

@stnickt wrote:

http to server (NOT working) - when i access the http from outside the network (my home) it automatically goes into the verizon router remote management on port 80 (and 8080). I would like to keep remote management on 8080, but have port 80 directed to my server (this i cannot accomplish)

That's a little scary!!  It sounds like you are allowing incoming WAN access to web management for remote admin - You should turn that off or at least change the default password and userid.

Your'e actually better to not run static NAT as the double NAT provided by your verizon router and your own router also gives you another layer of security.

With static nat turned off all you have to do is to access port forwarding and add a new entry either for http protocol, or user defined protocol using port 80, and set the destination to be the ip address of the web server in your network.  If you still have the second router inside the Verizon router then set it to a static ip on the verizon routers network e.g 192.168.1.254, then set the port forwarding above to forward port 80 to 192.168.1.254.  On your own router add a port forwarding rule for port 80 to go to your web server.  personally I would set the web server to use a non standard port as that to cuts down a lot on garbage probing

Typically you would then use something like DYNDNS to set up the forwarding via them to your web server name:your port number.

If you really want to remotely manage you verizon router you would be better off to add port forwarding for user defined protocol, call it RDP, and use port 3389.  Set the destination to be a machine inside your network that is turned on, maybe the web server?

Then run MSTSC on your remote machine and enter the ip address of the verizon router - this will give you a Remote Desktop on the machine inside your network, remember to turn on Allow Remote Access and set which users are allowed to access remotely.  You can run MSTSC /Console if you want to access the console of the machine and you can also use a non standard port for access - google RDP and non standard port.

Even more security can be provided by doing the above and also incorporating a network enabled APC masterSwitch Plus into your internal network that would allow you to remotely power on and off the machine that you would use for remote access.

---

[Arek]

I have FIOS for years now and I never used Verizon provided routers because they needed to be reset few times a day. I used netgears, Linksys routers directly connected to Verizon's network cable.  Currently I.m using D-link Extreme N Dual Band Gigabit  DIR-825 router. Have no problems with VOD and STB boxes (I have 3). D-link routers work strait out of the box because they match Verizon router setting  the IP Address range and IP Subnet mask. With Netgear routers you have to reconfigure the settings.

[vallibus]

Arek,

Are you saying switching from the Actiontech to a D-Link DIR-825 is basically "plug and play?"  Did you have to call Verizon to release your old router?  Was there anything else of a technical nature you had to do to make the switch?  Thanks for any feedback.

Bruce