Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix
tampaipv6
Enthusiast - Level 3

Here's a hilarious article from Verizon to dispell the 'myth' of issues getting what you have requested from Netflix:

http://publicpolicy.verizon.com/blog/entry/why-is-netflix-buffering-dispelling-the-congestion-myth

Here's my favorite part:

"One might wonder why Netflix and its transit providers were the only ones that ran into congestion issues. What it boils down to is this: these other transit and content providers took steps to ensure that there was adequate capacity for their traffic to enter our network."

Last time I checked, Verizon sells internet service to its customers; i.e., pay us and we give you access to whatever you want on the internet.  It is their job to ensure that I can get the content I am paying them to deliver to me.  It's ludacris to expect every content provider on the internet to investigate whether or not every internet provider on the planet has a network engineered to be able to receive large amounts of traffic from them.

I love how Verizon calls the traffic "their traffic." as if Netflix is magically sending something to them uninvited.  No Verizon, the traffic in question is not Netflix's traffic, it is my traffic.  I pay you for internet service, and I pay Netflix for movies, delivered in the form of packets of data across the internet.  When a unicast stream of movie data leaves Netflix's servers, it is mine, I paid for it, I pay you to deliver it from them to me, and you suck at doing that during busy times of the day.

45 Replies
Hubrisnxs
Legend

that isn't how the internet works.

Put it this way.

You want to share files with ME

If I don't have internet, can you do that?

No.

If netflix doesn't get an ISP can they stream their videos?

no.

So Netflix has an ISP and they pay people to get their traffic from point A to B. 

They are going on the cheap and using congested ISP's on their end, that is why your HBO GO your Hulu your amazon prime, your video streaming to Verizon probably works quite well.

It's netflix's problem.   they could fix this with a few mouse clicks, but they want free bandwidth.   apple pays for theirs, microsoft pays for theirs, all their competitors pay for theirs. 

That is unfair business practices and they are using you as a political ping pong ball trying to get their way

db909
Contributor - Level 3

All I can say is wow!

Netflix offered up OpenConnect several years ago that would have prevented this problem.

Comcast solved the problem within weeks of Netflix agreeing to pay them.

FIOS exec mgmt started talking about how hard networking is after Netflix agreed to start paying FIOS.

Now this months later?  Seriously?  FIOS best bet is to pay Comcast to show them how they did it or raid their engineers.

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deputyinbogeyla
Enthusiast - Level 2

Hubrisnxs:
Yes, but I don't have to pay 16 ISPs to transfer 16 different people files.  Netflix pays Cognent.  As long as Cognent can handle the traffic, it's up to Verizon to provide their customers the bandwidth they're paying for.  It's not Netflix's responsibility to sign up for 16 individual ISPs.

In the end it doesn't matter.  The longer Verizon keeps up this fight, the more they lose.  The public (by and large) is on Netflix's side of this thing and Verizon just looks worse and worse by the day.

(Btw the fact that you instantly jump to Apple as your first example of a company just shows what a sheep you are.)

FlyerQ
Enthusiast - Level 3

Verizon is currently receiving money from Netflix to implement open connect.  Recently service in my area has gotten dramatically better.

For the past two years Netflix and Verizon have been involved in a game of chicken where the injuries accrue to the customers.  Both have misrepresented that facts and Verizon could have easily solved the congestion - specifically there were no technical impediments beyond their control.  This was about money, it is now flowing, and relief should be coming to all.

People have a lot of acrimony towards Verizon and they have earned it in many way. Lying is just one of them.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

Deputy, lets not name call. 

netflix pays 16 isp's.  

why?

because if they did it with one, then what happens?    you guessed it, that 1 isp would get congested right?

Now you should ask yourself why is that, why can't netflix use just one ISP.  because the one isp wouldnt be able to carry all that bandwidth,right?

so they have several, and have made poor business decisions where they still dont have enough bandwidth.   ive been a netflix subscriber long enoigh to remember when there was no streaming. long enough to remember when they added it at no cost,and long enough to remember 3 different incidences where they put profits before me.   i get your mad at your verizon bill, but guess what. im offended that they took away my 3 disc a month plan (they should have grandfathered it in)  im madthat they gave me a rate increase, only to turn around and say oops we're sorry.  mad enough to remember the email i got a few months back saying that in a few months ill see another rate hike. 

both companies are money grabbers but netflix is the one in control.   thesse are business decisions that they have made that are causing your issue.  ask an apple tv owner how much trouble they havewith netflix?  they will tell u very little.  why is that.    because netflix charged apple a premium to deliver their devices content over a premium network.   and because im not an apple fan boy, i get screwed.   

now they want free bandwidth that none of their competitors get.   they lost that fight.  now they are crying sour grapes that they have to pay.   they could have done the same for you and me (like they did their apple tv customers) and routed us over links that werent saturated.   

was it verizons fault that apple tv customers were routed from netflix over a premium link?   no it wasnt. it was netflix's business decision.  

i'm not a fan boy for either company but i call a spade a spade.   netflix is in the wrong, and thats why they are choosing to ditch their current providers and go direct to the source.  why,again?  because they chose cheapy cogent and cogent couldnt do the job.  so now they are going to comcast and verizon to do what their third tier isp's couldnt.  

remember they were paying someone all along.  this isnt new for them.  they arent the little gu.  they arent you and me and netflix executives dont relate with you.  

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FlyerQ
Enthusiast - Level 3

Redacted.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

So far, if you look at the "proof" and the assertions that were made,Netflix is making the only unsubstantiated claim.  So why are you blaming verizon, I just don't understand.  When they mess up I call them out on it, but this is standard practice, and if netflix felt it was unfair then they shouldn't have signed any deal.  They should have been asking regulators and investigators.  WHY DID THEY NOT DO THAT?   Think LONG AND HARD about that.  WHY?   Because they knew that making a deal with comcast and verizon was a good business decision, and had nothing to do with net neutrality or legal proceedings.  They know that all these issues are a direct result of their business decisions, and they have now chosen to make a new one.  Ditch the saturated links, and bypass them.  Ditch the company that couldn't deliver, and go with the companies that can deliver.  

Every business makes similiar choices. 

unfortunately we live in a society where whoever screams the loudest is thought of as being right.  they distracted you with fluff, pomp and circumstance, and made you ignore the facts.  

Where is Verizon Lying?  Netflix is the one delivering a message that it can't back up, falsley misrepresenting things.  And when pressed legally to provide the proof of the assertion, they decided to simply comply with the cease and desist letter.

Why is that?

If they were in the right, then why wouldn't they tell Verizon to go pound sand?    I think we all know why.

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FlyerQ
Enthusiast - Level 3

The didn't call regulators because there was no reason for them to provide regulatory relief.

My understanding is:

- Netflix delivers data to Verizon on a low cost ISP who peers with Verizon, but Verizon's ports can't process the quantity of traffic attempting to be delivered

- Verizon tells Netflix  to deliver data using higher cost ISPs who pay Verizon to peer so Verizon has more infrastructure

To the public the companies spin it as:

Netflix represents to the public that Verizon should (per neutrality) upgrade their infrastructure at no cost to Netflix

Verizon represents to the public that Netflix choose paths too congested to deliver the data and Verizon infrastructure is not involved.

Meanwhile, the industry makes transparency difficult to impossible - an area where regulatory relief is being actively considered.

Leaving the customer stuck in the middle with a crappy picture and two false claims to contemplate.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

I am lucky, in that I don't have any problems when wired, but when wireless it's semi shaky.   So I understand that part is me, and my trouble.   But for the devices I have hardwired - they work fine and always have. 

I know the problem leaves all of us in the middle, so that makes me more mad, but I don't have a lot of emotions one way or the other, so I think (I could be wrong) that I can look at it objectively.  I've worked in NOC centers and currently work in IT, so I am intimately familiar with how this works, and it has been the same for at least the last decade.   When I was working NOC I would frequently deal with these situations - mainly from independant ISP's, and sometimes from ones quite larger. 

I could see via my software where the saturation was occuring and why.  I could see if it was a congested trunk that we had in our inventory, or if it was coming from the upstream provider.   Whenever this happened, if it was trouble in network we could get that fixed, sometimes it took a while especially if we had to order new trunks from scratch from at&t or gte or bell atlantic or SBC.   If the problem was at the other end, then it was real simple.  Quit over subscribing your customer base, or increase your bandwidth to support your customer base. 

I dealt with interconnects frequently, and that is a shared scenario.  You send us XYZ and we send you XYZ - we will keep the traffic fair and equal, and if one side was POURING it on, then they clearly needed to make an adjustment.  That isn't fair in that scenario.  That scenario is based on the traffic being equal going both ways, and if it wasn't then the offending party had a responsibility. 

That's fair that they do, they after all, are the ones with generating far more traffic than the other side.  So the weight of responsibility should fall on their shoulders. 

Netflix is just trying to pinch pennies.  I can't fault them for that, but to be completely disengenious with the little message ploy, that makes me distrust them immensely.  Coupled with the fact that they screwed me over several times, I have to find fault there.  

If amazon were messed up, and hulu, and youtube, and everyone else, then yes of course the problem is Verizon.  

That's not the case here, and I think we all know that.

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db909
Contributor - Level 3

@Hubrisnxs wrote:

Netflix is just trying to pinch pennies.  I can't fault them for that, but to be completely disengenious with the little message ploy, that makes me distrust them immensely.  Coupled with the fact that they screwed me over several times, I have to find fault there.  



Got anything in terms of links to back that up?


@Hubrisnxs wrote:

If amazon were messed up, and hulu, and youtube, and everyone else, then yes of course the problem is Verizon.  


 The self appointed experts said the the same on the Comcast forums.  They and their network tools were never heard from again after Comcast acknowledged the problem was on their end.  aka knowingly allowing CDN ports to get saturated and doing nothing about it.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

I have never seen them make any such acknowledgement   lol   what???

Netflix and Comcast made a deal to ditch the bad crappy slow congested CDN's like Cogent and go direct to comcast instead.  (probably the same or similiar price I bet)

what are you talking about?   

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tampaipv6
Enthusiast - Level 3

Hubrisnxs, yes, that IS how the internet works.  End users pay for access to it for the purpose of getting data they want.  Content providers pay for access to it to serve traffic.  Transit sits in the middle and the internet was built around settlement free peering amongst transit providers when it makes sense from a traffic exchange perspective.  It has always been that way.  DARPA and educational institutions didn't pay the destination party for the privilege of sending them data their users requested.

I pay Verizon for internet service, so do many others.  I pay them to provide me with the transit bandwidth they claim my plan comes with.  I do not pay them for 35 Mbit to some people, 2 Mbit to the ones they don't like.  If their network is incapable of handling large amounts of traffic from certain sources, they need to deal with it, not pick and choose which third parties get penalized.  If this precedent setting move starts to catch on, what you're going to see is every ISP start playing toll road with any content provider they feel like.  Don't pay, degrade the service until it's unusable.

Additionally, I like how you completely ignore the fact that Netflix offers free peering and free local cache servers to large ISP's so that content does not have to cross their internet connections, or can do so for much lower expense.  It's detailed on their website:

https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

Or even better, a Netflix employee himself posting about this yesterday:

http://seclists.org/nanog/2014/Jul/139

Verizon could easily obtain cache servers for their network that would greatly reduce the burden.  They could easily peer with Netflix at any number of peering points within internet exchanges.  I'm a network engineer myself, believe me, it would not cost them much.  10gig, and even 40 gig, interfaces are quite inexpensive for that size company at this point in time.  They don't do any of that because they like the idea of double dipping; charge their customers for data transit, charge the content providers for data transit.  They also don't have any trouble ruining the experience for less public and/or vocal groups.  There are several online games that are popular, require a decent amount of bandwidth, but not more than what fits in the specs of the plans Verizon sells, and yet don't function correctly on a regular basis.  Those users groups are too small for Verizon to care about releasing a press statement about, and they're happy to have those customers **bleep** because they probably have a monopoly on the last mile anyway.

I guess you're okay with your ISP deciding what packets of data are worth delivering to you.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

tampaipv6 , you also pay netflix.   Verizon is doing their part, that's why you can access amazon hulu, youtube and pretty much anywhere else flawlessly.  Netflix isn't doing their part, they are oversubscribing their subscribers vs the bandwidth they can transmit.    


Additionally, I like how you completely ignore the fact that Netflix offers free peering and free local cache servers to large ISP's so that content does not have to cross their internet connections, or can do so for much lower expense. It's detailed on their website:


Except for the fact that I don't, noone ever brought it up here.  But let me respond to that.   I think the ARStechnica article responded to this best - "If someone comes to you and says, 'hey I'm big, I want differentiated service, I'd like to move close to your consumers, so can you please make 40 inches of space and 5,000 watts of power available at 100 sites, thanks very much,' you would normally say, 'I'm in the business of selling that—here's my price list."

Again, Netflix is trying to get something for free that none of it's competitors get.  That's called unfair business practices and I'd file a complaint against netflix post haste

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djjsin1
Enthusiast - Level 2

I'm really getting tired of this Netflix/Verizon Situation.

I pay for 75MB downloads, i pay for Netflix, yet its Horribly slow!  I've been a fios customer for years, and it didnt used to be like this.

It seems pretty obviously based on the information i read that this is a Verizon problem.  Why is it every time there is a corporate fight, the customers are the one's who end up getting hurt.  This is not how you treat your customers verizon.  Fix the interconnect issue.....

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

DJ  how much trouble you having with any other vieo streaming, hulu, amazon, vudu, verizon tv online etc....

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tampaipv6
Enthusiast - Level 3

So, Hubrisnxs, basically you're saying if some other content is not slow, then Netflix is to blame?  You completely disregard the fact that Verizon sells their internet access at throughput rates.  They do not sell internet access to specific content, nor do they sell capacity that is content-specific.  You must not work in this industry, like I do, because if someone came to me and said we can cut your transit bandwidth by 14 Gigabits per second by giving you equipment that will consume 5000 watts of power and 25 rack units, I'd jump all over it.  A fully committed 10gig circuit to an independent transit provider is going to cost you a couple thousand in network hardware, and at a very small ISP level, about $20k/month.  Mega ISP's like Verizon can likely get 10gig circuits to transit providers for half that.  So what makes more sense, spend $10k/month times however many instances they need to satisfy their customers' demands, or take a bunch of boxes for free from Netflix and spend about $300/mo each on power and pocketing the other $9700 in savings?

If and when Verizon starts selling metered internet service where I'm paying per byte, then I'll be happy to be penalized for watching Netflix movies, but while they continue to sell their service as X mbits for Y/month, I expect to be given what I've paid for.  That doesn't seem to be compatible with your fanboy status.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

actually it does.  

these other companies are running their network the way it should be ran.  Netflix isn't.

They made poor choices, and can't support their demand. 

Sorry thems the facts, you can spin it however you want but it doesn't change the facts.

Look at it this way, let's pretend netflix wanted to run it's network off of one Verizon FiOS 300mb line.

Are you really telling me that you expect their millions of customers to get all those video's flawlessly? and if they do not, then that's verizon's fault, and not netflix? 

Of course they aren't -

this is all laughably simple.  Netflix needs a better provider, or they need to increase their pipes.

In the case of comcast and verizon, they chose better providers than cogent.

they made a smart business decision at the end of the day 

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

can i ask a question since you're "in the know"?

why doesnt hulu/prime/hbogo/espn/vudu have these problems?

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db909
Contributor - Level 3

The short answer is that Netflix accounts for 1/3 of all US internet traffic during peak times. They dwarf the other streaming services you mentioned.

"“We’d like to thank Verizon for laying out the issue so nicely,” Netflix said on Thursday in a statement about Verizon’s claim. “Congestion at the interconnection point is controlled by ISPs like Verizon. When Verizon fails to upgrade those interconnections, consumers get a lousy experience despite paying for more than enough bandwidth to enjoy high-quality Netflix video.” "

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-10/verizon-blames-netflix-for-slowing-down-its-own-vide...

"After the paid peerage deals were made between Comcast and Verizon and Netflix, service improved for Comcast users but not for Verizon's, according to Netflix's May speed chart. When the Comcast deal was struck in late February, ARS Technica reported, Netflix speeds became immediately better. Since the Verizon deal was made in late April, using Netflix has become an even slower experience for its customers."

"It's laughable that Verizon allegedly ransomed Netflix into making a deal by offering such a poor experience to the streaming service's customers that it had to pay but then couldn't deliver faster speeds. "

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/06/17/why-the-fcc-might-intervene-in-the-netflix-comcast....

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Hubrisnxs
Legend
Unfortunately that didn't answer the question. I'd avoid that question too if I could.
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