ONT-coaxial-Fios Network Adapter (FNA) ECB5240M-own router
lk777777
Newbie

Hi All,

I am thinking of switching to FIOS from Optimum. We have only coaxial cabling inside and Ethernet cabling is not an option.  I can't get an answer to my question via chat with the FIOS team.

The question:

Will this setup work?:

ONT-coaxial-Fios Network Adapter (FNA) ECB5240M-own router

In their User Guide (Network Adapter):

"... A. Verify the router in your home is connected to a coax outlet. .."

I need to connect a coaxial cable (the main feeder) to the Network Adapter and from it to my own router via the Ethernet port.

What speed may expect from this setup in case it is a workable solution.

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gs0b
Community Leader
Community Leader

The information that MoCA 1.1 can reach 175Mbps is correct, however Verizon does not sell a 175Mbps service.  The fastest service they sell that works with MoCA 1.1 is 100Mbps.  So, both Cang_Household and Verizon are correct; one is telling you the limitations of the technology, and the other is telling you what they are willing to sell.  I agree that this can create some confusion, as differences between the technical and business limits weren't clearly identified in your earlier conversations with Verizon or on this thread.

As for who to trust, Verizon has given you accurate information about what they will sell.  The one exception is the potential confusion over buried ONTs (they don't do that.)  What Verizon won't tell you about are any installation approaches or equipment that they don't support.  That's where advice from other users comes in.  We'll happily tell you how to use non-Verizon supported equipment to solve a variety of problems.  That's why I've asked you what services you want to get, as getting both TV service with Verizon boxes and internet has a significant impact on the options.

Verizon's preferred ONT installation is indoors.  With an indoor install, it's typically very easy to run Ethernet from the ONT to a router.  Running a fiber through an exterior wall into a home is very similar what the cable company does when the run a coax into a home.  When they run fiber to a home that only has cable, they often use the same hole as the coax.  Or drill a new hole next to it.  This usually isn't a big deal, as their techs are well trained in how to do this and do it every day.

Note that if your home has had fios in the past, the options may be different.  Again, that's why I keep asking questions; all I know about your situation is what you post here.

Ethernet for WAN ports makes excellent sense.  It's cheaper, more reliable, lower latency, and more flexible than MoCA.  For example, Ethernet WAN ports allow internet only users to use any router they want.  Of course, Verizon won't tell you about that (see previous comments about Verizon supported configurations), but it's an option we users will happily help you with.

All that said, here's a few points for your consideration before you give up on fios:

  • fios has much lower latency than cable.
  • fios has full speed upstream data.  Instead of cable's 5-15Mbps up, you'll get the same speed upstream as you do downstream.  Even if you're not a big uploader, this makes everything "snappier."
  • fios does not have as much variability in speed during peak times as cable.  It's fast bits, all the time!
  • fios has much better reliability than cable, as there is no powered equipment between the central office's OLT and your ONT.  Cable has all sorts of powered field equipment that can fail during outages.  Stick backup power on the ONT and router, and you'll have internet during power outages.

Considering that fios costs about the same for similar downstream speeds as cable, but offers all these advantages, most people find it a no-brainer to switch.  Are these benefits enough to make you willing to let them drill a hole in the side of you home and maybe run a fiber around some inside walls?  Well, that's up to you.

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gs0b
Community Leader
Community Leader

If you're getting internet only, you can do this:

ONT->Ethernet->MoCA 2.5 Adapter->coax->MoCA 2.5 Adapter->Ethernet->Router

This will work for any speed Verizon will sell you, including gigabit.  Verizon does not endorse or support this configuration, so they won't talk to you about it.

If you get this, do the install with the router next the the ONT using just Ethernet.  Once that's working, install the MoCA adapters.  MoCA 2.5 is fast enough for gigabit.  You don't need a Verizon extender.  Find a MoCA 2.5 adapter at your favorite (online) store and you'll be fine.

Be sure to disconnect the coax from Optimum, otherwise you'll be feeding your signal to the world.

If you have TV service, this gets much more complex.  Let us know if that's the case.

lk777777
Newbie

Thanks for your reply.

Do you mean that there no these days ONTs with the coaxial output?

The ONT is going to be installed outside and considering the Ethernet cabling is not an option for me, I am out of luck, right?

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Cang_Household
Community Leader
Community Leader

I doubt the ONT will be installed outside. Now days the ONT does not come with an enclosure any more.

lk777777
Newbie

I have another option (after chatting with Verizon) of ONT installation:

" .. it is then buried underground which the tech manages for you on the activation date.."

I was asking about where an ONT will be installed when there no  neither a basement  nor an attached garage.

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gs0b
Community Leader
Community Leader

The ONT is NOT buried underground.  They are talking about the fiber.  The ONT will be installed indoors.  The tech will run the fiber inside the building to an appropriate location.  The ONT will be attached to the fiber, a power supply and whatever services you're getting.  If you think of the ONT like a cable modem, you'll get the idea.

You haven't mentioned what services you're getting.  If you tell us, I and others can give you better answers.

lk777777
Newbie

I asked him twice about the ONT. I know that the fiber is buried underground.  It sounds like a stupid joke. But it is what it is. I am not making this up.

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gs0b
Community Leader
Community Leader

I cannot tell you why you came away from the chat with the incorrect understanding that the ONT is buried, as I did not participate in the conversation.  I can absolutely confirm that ONTs are never, ever, buried.

ONT's are active electrical devices that are plugged into power from an outlet in your home.  Verizon prefers to install them indoors.  They used to install them on an outside wall with power and data cables going through the wall to the interior.  They may still do exterior installs in unique cases, but I can't confirm.  Old outdoor installs that are being re-activated may be left as outdoor, but those are likely rare cases.

If you can answer the following questions, we users can give you good answers.  Often better than what the phone people will tell you.  Especially if you need to use an approach that isn't supported by Verizon.

  • Are you getting TV Service?
  • What internet speed are you getting?
  • Has the home ever had fios service?
  • If it has had fios service, where is the ONT?  What cables are connected to it?
lk777777
Newbie

This is the latest information:

They do install ONTs on the outside walls and ONTs do have 100 Mbps limitation on the coaxial output (still on MoCA 1.1).

So, most likely, I will stay with my current provider. Thank you for your responses.

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Cang_Household
Community Leader
Community Leader

This latest information seems faulty in multiple parts.

First, nearly all new ONT installations are indoors. Enclosures are no longer provided to the customers, so indoor installation is always preferred.

Second, MoCA 1.1 supports at most 175Mbps, not 100Mbps. 

lk777777
Newbie

"... This latest information seems faulty in multiple parts ..." 

This information came  from the Verizon FIOS technical support. Whom should I trust? Are you with Verizon?

How am I supposed to place an order if I can't trust anyone?

175 or 100 that is not the point. The point is Verizon is losing their potential customers only because they are not willing to upgrade MoCA in ONTs.

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gs0b
Community Leader
Community Leader

The information that MoCA 1.1 can reach 175Mbps is correct, however Verizon does not sell a 175Mbps service.  The fastest service they sell that works with MoCA 1.1 is 100Mbps.  So, both Cang_Household and Verizon are correct; one is telling you the limitations of the technology, and the other is telling you what they are willing to sell.  I agree that this can create some confusion, as differences between the technical and business limits weren't clearly identified in your earlier conversations with Verizon or on this thread.

As for who to trust, Verizon has given you accurate information about what they will sell.  The one exception is the potential confusion over buried ONTs (they don't do that.)  What Verizon won't tell you about are any installation approaches or equipment that they don't support.  That's where advice from other users comes in.  We'll happily tell you how to use non-Verizon supported equipment to solve a variety of problems.  That's why I've asked you what services you want to get, as getting both TV service with Verizon boxes and internet has a significant impact on the options.

Verizon's preferred ONT installation is indoors.  With an indoor install, it's typically very easy to run Ethernet from the ONT to a router.  Running a fiber through an exterior wall into a home is very similar what the cable company does when the run a coax into a home.  When they run fiber to a home that only has cable, they often use the same hole as the coax.  Or drill a new hole next to it.  This usually isn't a big deal, as their techs are well trained in how to do this and do it every day.

Note that if your home has had fios in the past, the options may be different.  Again, that's why I keep asking questions; all I know about your situation is what you post here.

Ethernet for WAN ports makes excellent sense.  It's cheaper, more reliable, lower latency, and more flexible than MoCA.  For example, Ethernet WAN ports allow internet only users to use any router they want.  Of course, Verizon won't tell you about that (see previous comments about Verizon supported configurations), but it's an option we users will happily help you with.

All that said, here's a few points for your consideration before you give up on fios:

  • fios has much lower latency than cable.
  • fios has full speed upstream data.  Instead of cable's 5-15Mbps up, you'll get the same speed upstream as you do downstream.  Even if you're not a big uploader, this makes everything "snappier."
  • fios does not have as much variability in speed during peak times as cable.  It's fast bits, all the time!
  • fios has much better reliability than cable, as there is no powered equipment between the central office's OLT and your ONT.  Cable has all sorts of powered field equipment that can fail during outages.  Stick backup power on the ONT and router, and you'll have internet during power outages.

Considering that fios costs about the same for similar downstream speeds as cable, but offers all these advantages, most people find it a no-brainer to switch.  Are these benefits enough to make you willing to let them drill a hole in the side of you home and maybe run a fiber around some inside walls?  Well, that's up to you.

Cang_Household
Community Leader
Community Leader

I guess I am not being clear enough.

Verizon do install ONTs outside, but it is not the sole option. Now days indoor ONTs are more popular. On the day of the tech visit, you can discuss with the technician whether you want it indoor or outdoor.

MoCA technology is good, but has inherent limitations. MoCA encode and decode would add at least 3ms to the ping. MoCA cannot ensure full duplex transport at the maximum theoretical speed. Different MoCA devices may not interoperate. Right now, with Broadcom pulling out of the MoCA business, Max Linear seems to be the only manufacturer of MoCA controllers. Max Linear is slow at debugging their firmware and has poor compatibility with legacy chips. To avoid issues down the road, MoCA should not be used in newer installations.

Talking about trust, I guess anything from others are mere suggestions, you should trust your own judgement at the end of the day.

gs0b
Community Leader
Community Leader

My first response assumed you have an ONT installed indoors but can't easily run Ethernet from it's location to your desired router location.  Provide more details about you situation and desired services and you'll get a better answer.

The ONT's support both coax and Ethernet for the WAN connection.  However, coax is only good for speeds of 100Mbps and below, as the ONT has an older, slower MoCA interface.  All new installs are done with Ethernet WAN from the ONT.  Coax is also required if you get TV service.

If there is not currently an ONT installed outside, or if the outdoor install is old and only has coax, a Verizon technician can run an Ethernet cable from the ONT to your preferred location.  You can also do this work yourself or hire your own contractor, should you not want Verizon to do it.  Note that Verizon does not fish cables through walls, so any interior runs will be tacked to the outside of walls.  If you want the cable hidden inside walls, do it yourself or hire a contractor.

If you don't currently have an ONT installed, I suggest you let Verizon install it indoors.  In addition to it being their preferred installation method today, the ONT will last longer as it's not exposed to the elements.  They have some really tiny fiber that they can run inside homes.  While it won't be fished through walls, it's smaller than coax or Ethernet cables and can barely be seen.