War between Netflix and Verizon FIOS? Who will win?
gamer99
Contributor - Level 1

WAR has started between NETFLIX and the Beast Verizon FIOS.  Any idea who will win?

  

     http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/05/technology/netflix-verizon/

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27 Replies
bobbo527
Specialist - Level 3
No, but I can tell you who will LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Us, the paying customer. In the end we will be the ones screwed over.
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Hubrisnxs
Legend

Netflix is being VERY disengenious and almsot deceitful with that message. 

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geschinger1
Enthusiast - Level 3

Verizon is also apparently afraid of transparency by issuing a Cease and Desist letter to Netflix to prevent them from exposing the fact that Verizon is not adequately upgrading their port capacity to meet the demands of the bandwidth levels they are charging for.

deputyinbogeyla
Enthusiast - Level 2

http://publicpolicy.verizon.com/blog/entry/shifting-blame?_ga=1.130050950.822000576.1402003178

Verizon VP David Young said "It would be more accurate for Netflix's message screen to say: 'The path that we have chosen to reach Verizon’s network is crowded right now.'"


It would be most accurate for Mr. Young to say "Netflix hasn't paid us enough, so the path we're providing them is crowded right now."

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jp8899
Enthusiast - Level 3

There is nothing wrong with the path.  Verizon is apparently intentionally limiting or throttling traffic from certain providers.  I have noticed it myself with online video at night.  

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

@jp8899 wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the path.  Verizon is apparently intentionally limiting or throttling traffic from certain providers.  I have noticed it myself with online video at night.  



There's something very wrong with the path that they are choosing.

Netflix actually has quite a bit of control.


In a little known, but public fact, anyone who is on Comcast or Verizon and using Apple TV to stream Netflix wasn’t having quality problems. The reason for this is that Netflix is using Level 3 and Limelight to stream their content specifically to the Apple TV device. What this shows is that Netflix is the one that decides and controls how they get their content to each device and whether they do it via their own servers or a third party. Netflix decides which third party CDNs to use and when Netflix uses their own CDN, they decide whom to buy transit from, with what capacity, in what locations and how many connections they buy, from the transit provider. Netflix is the one in control of this, not Comcast or any ISP.


See The below articles.

Unbalanced Peering, and the Real Story Behind the Verizon/Cogent Dispute (cogent is one of netflix's providers)

This article details the technical aspect of it, pretty interesting read if you're into that sort of stuff. Verizon Signed a similiar deal with netflix as well.

Also if you want to understand how this all really works here is another great article by CNET

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geschinger1
Enthusiast - Level 3
This is more **bleep** from Verizon. The unbalanced peering is because VZ sets it up that way. Look at the discrepancy between what VZ provides down an up. The question I wish VZ had the courage to address is why if such a large number of customers paying a lot of money for services are requesting traffic that routes from Cogent why that does t justify VZ upgrading those ports. It is galling that VZ artificially limits what it's customers can access by refusing to upgrade where ports are congested while at the same time trying to get customers to upgrade speeds.

It is clear that Verizon is the bad actor in this dispute.
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mike_in_nyc
Newbie

I have two residences, one in NYC area and one in Northeast PA.  

My FiOS plan is 75 Mbps Download and 35 Mbps upload

My Blue Ridge Cable (BRC) plan is 10 Mbps Download and 800 kbps upload.

I take the same Macbook Pro laptop (mid-2012 Core i5 with 16GB ram and 512 GB SSD) and AppleTV (latest model) back and forth.

I connect to the FiOS using ethernet, and connect to BRC using wifi.   

Verizon FiOS:  Device: AppleTV

I notice a lot of lag and buffering when streaming from Netflix, and plenty of issues with Crunchyroll app.  I can not stream three consecutive episodes on Crunchyroll without the stream failing.  

BRC:  Device:  AppleTV

Streaming is perfectly fine with Netflix, and zero issues with Crunchyroll.  On Crunchyroll, I was able to stream 50 HD episodes continuiously for about 20 hours via wireless without having to restart and without any failures.  During this time, I had two laptops connected to the wifi, and also a Roku that was connected as well.  I was able to do this on a 10 Mbps internet package, with only a maximum of 800 Kbps upload speed.

Verizon FiOS:  Devices: Macbook Pro and iPhone

When streaming wirelessly on Youtube, there seems to be issues when loading videos, and videos load slowly, and stop to buffer many times.  

BRC:  Devices: Macbook Pro and iPhone

When streaming wirelessly on Youtube, there are no noticible issues with streaming.   

These are the same devices uses on both carriers.  It's outragous that Verizon FiOS is charging us all this money for services that they block and throttle speeds even for users on their high end packages.  On some backwater cable internet carrier offering a significantly slower plan, I can stream continiously in HD for 20 hours without any buffering or fails.  

I used to love Verizon FiOS back in 2006, but now 8 years later, it's morphed into something awful.  I honestly believe that what Verizon is doing is illegal, and I am hoping some hot shot lawyer takes the company to court over it.  

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kerryT1
Newbie

Netflix is more important to me and many people I know than any of the cable or even local TV channels at this point. Verizon needs to stop abusing netflix, play along and embrace the future - maybe even lower the prices.

I hate paying the $100/montgh for a whole bunch of channel that I never ever watch.

Netflix + hbogo combo does the job for me.

Does anyone know if netflix over comcast is better in video/audio quality than we have with fios? I would switch tomorrow for a better deal.

Today Verizon gets paid plenty. I have been slowly dumping cable packages still the price is unacceptable.

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roaddogg1
Specialist - Level 1

@kerryT wrote:

I hate paying the $100/montgh for a whole bunch of channel that I never ever watch.



Ok so then why do you?

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justdigi
Contributor - Level 1

What's the mater big V?  Don't like it when you are called out?  I'm absolutely convinced that you (Verizon)  are throttling Netfix.  Prior to December of 2013 Netflix buffered instantly.  Subsequent data chunks ALSO buffered nearly instantly (I can watch the activity on my network).  I have 75/35.

By the end of December/Beginning of January, I found it difficult to even maintain an HD connection to Netflix.  A connection that really should only take up about 3MBs.  That issue remains to this day.

Compare that to any encrypted download I do which REGULARLY surpasses my 75MBs speed, during the same time of day. There's no 'congestion' there's only 'Traffic Shaping' (read: putting someone in the penalty box) being done by you

We're not stupid V.  We see where you are extorting cash from others for 'priority' access to your network.  Did Netflix not pay their "protection money" this month?  You would think that you would have learned back during the AT&T monopoly/alternative LD company days that unless you play fair, you will be MADE TO PLAY FAIR using the BIG STICK.

ThatBrian
Enthusiast - Level 2

Verizon has really **bleep** me off on this one. My Netflix has been getting slower and slower. All the speed tests show 75mbps for my connections, so its not my equipment.

Netflix, 350px, maybe 512 sometimes. Every once in a while it wakes up and gets to 640x480. What a pile of crap.

If they don't fix this soon, they will lose a lot of customers. Why would I pay for a fast connection if I can't use it on the actual services I care about having the high speed connection for?

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justdigi
Contributor - Level 1

I'd like to thank Verizon for catching up with Amazon Prime on Monday here in Tampa.  I love my service even more now that I can't stream HD from Prime anymore.  I was really upset that I could watch Prime even when Netflix was so slow.  Traffic Shaping and pay for play are definately the way of the future!

/sarcasam.

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roaddogg1
Specialist - Level 1

@justdigi wrote:

I'd like to thank Verizon for catching up with Amazon Prime on Monday here in Tampa.  I love my service even more now that I can't stream HD from Prime anymore.  I was really upset that I could watch Prime even when Netflix was so slow.  Traffic Shaping and pay for play are definately the way of the future!

/sarcasam.


I live just outside of Tampa and have 0 issues streaming amazon prime. I didnt have issues with Netflix during the free trial I used either.

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db909
Contributor - Level 3

"Who will win?"

At this rate Comcast/TWC!

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TennisFreak
Enthusiast - Level 3

So I am going to start a youtube campain with proof Verizon is throttling Netflix specifically.

Last night I tried a "proof of concept" test to see what would happen and it went exactly as I planned.  This week I will produce and post a full video of this to try and prove Verizon is throttling Netflix intentionally.


Here is what I did last night.  Also I performed this test twice once over my in house wi-fi and then again over my hard wired gigabit network with identical results.

1. Open netflix on xbox one and try to watch How I met your mother and then World War Z.

2. Experience approiximately 5 minutes of buffering for video to load.  Video begins to play for approximately 20 seconds then stops and buffers again.  

3. After 5 mintues of attempted buffering I give up and shut down the xbox.

4. Load Netflix on my Lumia 1520 phone connected to wifi.  Experience same issues as xbox one.

5. Open coputer internet browser and test speed on speedtest.net.  Recieve full 15 down 5 up speeds.

6. Watch youtube on my internet browser in full HD with no buffering.

7. Turn xbox one on and load youtube. 

8. Open youtube app and load video, experience about 15 secods and then commence to watch full HD stream of video.

9. Re-open Netflix on xbox one and try to play How I met your mother.

10. Experience about 3 minutes of buffering then stream loads in extremely low quality and plays.  Picture is pixelated and blocky.

11. After about 3 minutes of watching How I met your mother stream improves to what I would consider standard definition quality.

12. Disconnect my Lumia 1520 from wifi and have it running exclusively on LTE.

13. Open netflix and play exact same episode of How I met your mother simultaneously as the xbox one.

14. Experience approximately 10 seconds of buffering and stream commences to play in HD quality with no further buffering while the xbox one is barely maintaining a standard definition quality stream.

15. Re-connect my Lumia 1520 to local wifi

16. Open speedtest.net app and run test.  Confirm getting full 15 down 5 upload speeds.

17. Open netflix and try to resume How I met your mother episode. 

18. Experience almost 1 mintue of buffering before stream starts in a very low quality (almost below standard definition).

I know my test is no silver bullet pinning Verizon to the wall but I feel that it is more than adequate in showing that something is going on WITH VERIZON and not Netflix.  When you can watch Netflix perfectly on a mobile phone LTE connection but barely get it to play on a local gigabit hard wired network SOMETHING IS WRONG.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

I am sorry, I just wanted to point out that your test shows the opposite. It shows that Youtube and Google have an appropriate amount of bandwidth where netflix doesn't?

it doesn't show that verizon is doing anything to netflix's traffic.

That same test you just performed, if you removed netflix from the picture, and substituted ME instead, would prove that I might have a DSL line or a really cheapy slow FiOS connection, not that Verizon was throttling ME.

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TennisFreak
Enthusiast - Level 3

Wrong I know you are trying to back Verizon here but it clearly shows that through one ISP (ATT LTE) I get full HD picture with no buffering while simultaneously through another ISP (Verizon FIOS) I get minutes of buffering, low picture quality, and a terrible experience.  Then using the same ISP (Verizon FIOS) I can instantly move to a different service and get a perfectly fine experience.


The test (while not conclusive) clearly shows Netflix over Verizon is severly comprised while at the same time through another ISP it works perfectly.  At the same time it also shows Verizon service running at the maximum advertised speed and serving other services (Youtube) perfectly.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

I wish that it showed that, I do. but truthfully it shows the opposite.  It shows that Netflix hasn't not choosen the appropriate amount of bandwidth across that particular CDN going to you. 

If you were able to do traceroutes for BOTH LTE and FiOS and then post those so we could compare and contrast, then that MIGHT be something, but the non empirical test that you did only supports that Netflix doesn't have the appropriate bandwidth to the provider, and evidenced by the fact that their apple tv subscribers on FiOS have no such issue, shows that they are in complete control of this situation and choose to not click their mouse buttons a few more times to route you across a simliarly less congested link like their Apple TV subscribers.

That personally would enfuriate me, and I would call them if that were my problem, but that's me.

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Hubrisnxs
Legend

Focus on your own statement.


(Verizon FIOS) I get minutes of buffering, low picture quality, and a terrible experience. Then using the same ISP (Verizon FIOS) I can instantly move to a different service and get a perfectly fine experience.

 That screams where the issue is. 

Unless you believe in conspiracy theories, and if so then you have to at least provide motivation that would be unique to netflix and not any of their competitors.   Why would netflix be singled out  

and yelling "because they are big" doesn't count

money is money, and VERIZON is not in the business of throwing away money, so why not get it from all of them instead of one? (meaning netflix, hulu, hbo go vudu amazon prime, youtube etc)

it just doesn't pass the smell test, IOW that dog don't hunt

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