Why are certain websites really slow unless I use a VPN?

[woodsja]

When I stream Netflix I never get HD playback.

If I turn on my VPN, all of a sudden I get HD playback.

If I monitor my network activity I can physically observe significantly greater network activity after enabling my VPN.

Why is the data from certain websites like Netflix significantly slower when Verizon knows the origin of the data?

[smith6612]

There are some known congestion issues between Verizon and some other networks due to the data explosion caused by services such as Netflix. Netflix, being one the biggest players in this has signed deals with Verizon to take dedicated paths in and out of the Verizon network rather than travel over common Internet transit that other websites must share.

The reason the VPN works better is due to both the path between you and the VPN being in better shape, and the VPN endpoint and whatever site you're trying to visit having a non-congested route. There isn't throttling or shaping taking place that would be causing this.

For Netflix, sit tight. Many locatons are now reporting direct routes showing up for streaming, and playback is starting to flip to HD almost immediately. Performance may be inconsistent for some time until Netflix figures out how to optimally load both their direct circuits, and their general transit. The same goes with Verizon as they have to adjust their network to deal with demands from customers.

For the rest of the traffic, one heavier services like Netflix are reduced to dedicated transit, these services should improve.

[db909]

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@woodsja wrote:

When I stream Netflix I never get HD playback.

If I turn on my VPN, all of a sudden I get HD playback.

If I monitor my network activity I can physically observe significantly greater network activity after enabling my VPN.

Why is the data from certain websites like Netflix significantly slower when Verizon knows the origin of the data?

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 Think "FIOS Redbox"

[viafax999]

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@woodsja wrote:

When I stream Netflix I never get HD playback.

If I turn on my VPN, all of a sudden I get HD playback.

If I monitor my network activity I can physically observe significantly greater network activity after enabling my VPN.

Why is the data from certain websites like Netflix significantly slower when Verizon knows the origin of the data?

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Because you're vpn is using different dns servers which give you a better path.

You'll probably get the same effect by changing your local dns from the verizon dns server to open dns or google.

I suspect that's why I don't and never have had any netflix issues.

[db909]

It has nothing to do with DNS otherwise people would just change their DNS to google or Level 3 etc.

"Using a VPN hides the kind of traffic you're using, so ISPs can't discriminate against high-bandwith ones—not just Netflix, but possibly other streaming services like Hulu or YouTube"

http://lifehacker.com/use-a-vpn-to-bypass-your-isps-throttling-of-netflix-or-1608538080

[viafax999]

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@db909 wrote:

It has nothing to do with DNS otherwise people would just change their DNS to google or Level 3 etc.

"Using a VPN hides the kind of traffic you're using, so ISPs can't discriminate against high-bandwith ones—not just Netflix, but possibly other streaming services like Hulu or YouTube"

http://lifehacker.com/use-a-vpn-to-bypass-your-isps-throttling-of-netflix-or-1608538080

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I have and never have had any netflix issues since getting rid of Verizon dns servers.

Maybe the OP who said that it worked fine with a vpn could change his dns servers to see if that also resolves the issues and report back.

[db909]

The Netflix / FIOS issue has been going on for months and it is a well-documented fact that a VPN will alleviate the issue. My suggestion to you is google  "Netflix FIOS VPN”.

The fact that you have not had the issue is not relevant. I have not either, Netflix works great for me with FIOS, Google, or Level 3 DNS, probably because this issue has nothing to do with DNS.

Again google is your friend, do some research and what you will see is hundreds of people are having issues with Netflix on FIOS, they post here, on DSLR, blogs etc etc. What is pretty obvious if you do a bit of research is that the issue is geographical.   Some parts of the country have a lot more congestion than others.  Be glad you don't live in one of those areas.

"Is Netflix's CDN routing affected by the DNS server you use? I'm not a Netflix user but some in the household are, so I better ask, wifey might not cook dinner. "

"No. DNS is for when your computer is looking for something, when the data is coming the other way, its up to the sender what the route will be"

" So, if you click for a movie title the DNS server doesn't look for the nearest/closest Netflix CDN? If not, who determines the nearest/closest CDN server for us?"

"When you click, that is an application on the Netflix server which decides on their end how to send the movie stream to your device based on IP address which it already has. DNS is never used in this process"

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29341990-Networking-1st-Proof-of-Verizon-Netflix-Direct-Peering-~st...

[merk3]

I can confirm that the issue you experience with netflix is entirely due to verizon and there is no other outside issue. Verizon is purposely causing a bottleneck with any traffic from netflix. They are basically extoring money from netflix demanding netflix pay for the traffic we're already paying for with our monthly fees otherwise they wont remove the bottleneck.

It's litterally something as simple as verizon need to stick in a few extra network cards/routers to fix the problem - a problem netflix has offered to pay for and do itself and verizon has refused - until netflix finally agreed to pay their extortion fees. 

The reason it works when you go over a vpn is the traffic is getting routed differently over verizon's network. The bottleneck verizon has created only effects traffic fron netflix. When you use your vpn, the traffic as far as verizon can tell is just coming from the vpn server. So no bottleneck.

I've tested this myself using the vpn service from vypr vpn. This was just before netflix caved in and agreed to pay verizon's extortion fees.  Since then my netflix playback has improved without needing to use the vpn service.

[viafax999]

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@db909 wrote:

"No. DNS is for when your computer is looking for something, when the data is coming the other way, its up to the sender what the route will be"

" So, if you click for a movie title the DNS server doesn't look for the nearest/closest Netflix CDN? If not, who determines the nearest/closest CDN server for us?"

"When you click, that is an application on the Netflix server which decides on their end how to send the movie stream to your device based on IP address which it already has. DNS is never used in this process"

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r29341990-Networking-1st-Proof-of-Verizon-Netflix-Direct-Peering-~st...

I dont' really feel like arguing the point , however
I suspect that what you said here isn't true.  If the OP connects via a vpn and makes a netflix request the data is going to come back to him via the vpn route - no way would that vpn allow unsolicited traffic.

Similarly I would also believe that netflix would not send me unsolicited traffic but would reply to the netflix connection created by the netflix client request from my device.

[db909]

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@viafax999 wrote:

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I dont' really feel like arguing the point , however
I suspect that what you said here isn't true.  If the OP connects via a vpn and makes a netflix request the data is going to come back to him via the vpn route - no way would that vpn allow unsolicited traffic.

Similarly I would also believe that netflix would not send me unsolicited traffic but would reply to the netflix connection created by the netflix client request from my device.

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Believe/suspect what you wish, but before you invent how things should work please research before you give advice here.

It would be great if you gave a link to a source that DNS will somehow fix this specific issue.

DNS has nothing to do with this and will not fix this issue.  I have been following this issue for 2 years and I find it reprehensible that ISPs are using their customers as pawns to get their issues with Netflix addressed.  They are a lot smarter than to be out foxed by a simple DNS change.

[Hubrisnxs]

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Sorry... that is a theory made up by Netflix themselves. They want you to believe there are only a few paths to reach ISPs when the reality is there are many peers and Netflix chose specific ones to arbitrarily swing 1/3 of the Internet to and congest. Check here for a list of Tier 1s and Tier 2s that can be used... Surprisingly there are many that others seem to use successfully

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_net···networks

They made up the peering issue (which appears to be limited to their decisions) as part of their negotiations...

Just like they made up that payment was unprecedented when every one of their competitors, hosting sites, CDNs, web servers actually do buy quality transit from these "secret peers that magically have capacity to ISPs"

Just like they made up that your ISP can only deliver 2mbps, when all other independent measurements say 20-30mbps.

Just like they made up that OpenConnect is a new idea that needs special government support, when in fact Akamai started using the exact same technology and business model back in the late 90's

Just like they made up that ISPs are degrading service, when in fact it is Netflix that is using Peering Playbook Tactic #9 to cause customer problems as part of negotiations.

There is a lot of fiction in Netflix's statements if are willing to see it...

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[Hubrisnxs · Accepted solution]

Here's a great article from Sandvine on the Netflix over a VPN and Why it might work better in some cases.

Video Provider and VPNs

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Before we dig deeper, the two key things you need to know about packet delivery on the Internet are as follows:

1)      The sender (Netflix) chooses the path for all packets

2)      Networks are not normally intelligent enough to route around congestion

...

For those readers, who may immediately jump to the cause of lower quality video being a consumer ISP throttling traffic, know that even the CEO of Netflix doesn’t think this is the case.

...

So will a VPN will give some people a better video experience? Yes.

Will it improve video quality for the vast majority of subscribers? Likely not.

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 And here's a more authoritative test conducted, with large samplings of customers.

Verizon: Us throttling AWS and Netflix? Not likely

[Hubrisnxs]

And what was said about DNS servers achieving the same outcome as VPN's is also true, and a better experience.  VPN's are naturally very slow.

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 Using a standalone DNS provider instead of your ISP's DNS can sometimes change where your streaming data comes from. "You're effectively lying to their system and pretending to be somewhere else," he said. "It's exactly the same effect, it's achieved differently, you don't actually use a VPN or a tunnel." Streaming services may use DNS-based geo-location to figure out an optimal path to send traffic. Tricking the geo-location system can result in the data being sent from a different location and along a different path.

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[merk3]

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@Hubrisnxs wrote:

And what was said about DNS servers achieving the same outcome as VPN's is also true, and a better experience.  VPN's are naturally very slow.

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 Using a standalone DNS provider instead of your ISP's DNS can sometimes change where your streaming data comes from. "You're effectively lying to their system and pretending to be somewhere else," he said. "It's exactly the same effect, it's achieved differently, you don't actually use a VPN or a tunnel." Streaming services may use DNS-based geo-location to figure out an optimal path to send traffic. Tricking the geo-location system can result in the data being sent from a different location and along a different path.

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i'm sorry - how does dns effect where a server thinks you are? As far as I know, netflix has no clue what DNS i use. The communication with the name server and myself is just between myself and the name server. How does changing name servers change where netflix (or any other server out there) thinks I am located?

[Hubrisnxs]

that's pretty much how CDN's work.    Netflix knows where the DNS server is located by geolocate services. it actively uses DNS geo locate services to determine how to send you a movie.

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@merk wrote:

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The way a CDN works is as follows: companies relying on CDN based delivery of their contents will manage their domains through a CDN provider. When a request comes for say domain D, a machine will contact its configured DNS server and will be directed to the "authoritative entity" for the domain D in question. From this point, the CDN DNS server can reply with an answer that provides a binding to an IP address "closest" to where the request originated.

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[merk3]

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@Hubrisnxs wrote:

that's pretty much how CDN's work.    Netflix knows where the DNS server is located by geolocate services. it actively uses DNS geo locate services to determine how to send you a movie.

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@merk wrote:

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The way a CDN works is as follows: companies relying on CDN based delivery of their contents will manage their domains through a CDN provider. When a request comes for say domain D, a machine will contact its configured DNS server and will be directed to the "authoritative entity" for the domain D in question. From this point, the CDN DNS server can reply with an answer that provides a binding to an IP address "closest" to where the request originated.

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That doesn't really make sense. Many people use the same name server and are scattered all over the country. For example, you can use opendns which is a free dns service. If what you described were true, then everyone using that name would ALL appear to be coming from the same location because they are all using that name server. 

[Hubrisnxs]

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@merk wrote:

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@Hubrisnxs wrote:

that's pretty much how CDN's work.    Netflix knows where the DNS server is located by geolocate services. it actively uses DNS geo locate services to determine how to send you a movie.

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@merk wrote:

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The way a CDN works is as follows: companies relying on CDN based delivery of their contents will manage their domains through a CDN provider. When a request comes for say domain D, a machine will contact its configured DNS server and will be directed to the "authoritative entity" for the domain D in question. From this point, the CDN DNS server can reply with an answer that provides a binding to an IP address "closest" to where the request originated.

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That doesn't really make sense. Many people use the same name server and are scattered all over the country. For example, you can use opendns which is a free dns service. If what you described were true, then everyone using that name would ALL appear to be coming from the same location because they are all using that name server. 

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Like I said, that's exactly how they work.    most people are NOT using open dns or google, they are using the DNS for the area they are in based on what Verizon Gives them.

How content delivery networks (CDNs) work | NCZOnline

Open DNS Advertises that they give you a faster web browsing experience, ever wonder how?

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Speed up your Internet experience

OpenDNS’s 23 global data centers are strategically located at the most well-connected intersections of the Internet. Unlike other providers, OpenDNS’s network uses sophisticated Anycast routing technology, which means no matter where you are in the world, your DNS requests are answered by the datacenter closest to you. Combined with the largest DNS caches in the industry, OpenDNS provides you with DNS responses faster than anyone else

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 Mind you, people that use open dns likely won't see any difference, but if they choose a dns server in another state, or even a different timezone, then Netflix is going to see that and route your traffic differently. 

Remember,  the two key things you need to know about packet delivery on the Internet are as follows:

1)      The sender (Netflix) chooses the path for all packets

2)      Networks are not normally intelligent enough to route around congestion

Verizon doesn't choose how Netflix sends YOU information.   Netflix does. 

[db909]

Boy you just don't know when to give up.

Many of your apparently copy and pasted comments are not supported by a working link.  So we have no idea what the source is or even is one exists.  see "Video Provider and VPNs "

You are confusing "domain" with "domain name system" aka DNS.  Two different things.

Regardless, even if what you are saying is true, which it isn't, you have missed the whole point.

The reason a VPN works is that FIOS cannot determine the origin of the video stream.   All they know is that it is coming from VPN Company X. 

If you are not on a VPN, FIOS knows the stream is coming from Netflix.

In terms of DNS:

"the Domain Name System is that it serves as the phone book for the Internet by translating human-friendly computer hostnames into IP addresses. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System

As an example when you type in netflix.com the DNS server looks up the IP and sends you there.  If you knew the ip for a given web site you could type that IP into your browser and arrive at the same place.

When Netflix's sends a movie to you, they are sending to your IP, not a web site name.   There is no need for DNS, again DNS is to translate a site's name into an IP.  Besides 99% of residential users don't have a  website name associated with their dynamic IP, that FIOS reserves the right to change at anytime but rarely does.

If you wish to defend FIOS in their battle with Netflix, start a new thread.

Trying to change the discussion away from your erroneous suggestion that changing DNS will fix Netflix issues while self-serving provides no value to the rest of us. It won’t work.

[merk3]

I also wanted to make a comment regarding the people who are saying the slow down isn't verizon's fault and the netflix is misleading people.

if that were true, how did verizon manage to fix the issue so quickly as soon as netflix agreed to pay verizon? Netflix said it was simply a matter of basically installing extra network cards. Something that can be done in a few hours. Not to mention - aren't we already paying for the data? Does the post office charge the person who receives the letter a fee as well?

Personally i think verizon just saw a chance to use it's own users as hostages to extort some money out of netflix so that we could use the service we already pay for. In the end we'll be the ones paying extra since netflix will at some point have to increase it's prices to cover these costs.

[Hubrisnxs]

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@merk wrote:

I also wanted to make a comment regarding the people who are saying the slow down isn't verizon's fault and the netflix is misleading people.

if that were true, (1) how did verizon manage to fix the issue so quickly as soon as netflix agreed to pay verizon? (2) Netflix said it was simply a matter of basically installing extra network cards. Something that can be done in a few hours. Not to mention - (3) aren't we already paying for the data? Does the post office charge the person who receives the letter a fee as well?

Personally i think verizon just saw a chance to use it's own users as hostages to extort some money out of netflix so that we could use the service we already pay for. In the end we'll be the ones paying extra since netflix will at some point have to increase it's prices to cover these costs.

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Verizon hasn't resolved the issue yet, and most posters here complain about the snail's pace that Verizon is acting on
     See this forum post for proof  [Networking] 1st Proof of Verizon / Netflix Direct Peering????

Netflix never said that, Level 3 Said that, and Verizon Reminded them pretty quickly that they were making the same complaint months earlier.

You are paying for your data, and you are paying Netflix for their movie.  Netflix needs an ISP too.  The ISP that they choose is performing slow.

Netflix has had 3 recent price hikes, that I remember.  and I am still P.O. at them for both.  The first one they took away my disk delivery and left me with streaming only, offering nicely to double my monthly fee to keep the disk delivery, and then recently they did a 1.00 increase on all users, got beat up in the media pretty bad, and then changed their minds.  and now a new email was sent to me that I'll keep my price for x amount of months before they increase it again.

Netflix could fix this very easily with a few clicks of their mouse, they are taking a page out of a dubious peering play handbook that outlines how they artificially create choke points, to force ISP's to foot the bill for them.   Eearlier it was mentioned, but it bears repeating

"Just like they (Netflix) made up that ISPs are degrading service, when in fact it is Netflix that is using Peering Playbook Tactic #9 to cause customer problems as part of negotiations."

 A good point is brought up at the link if you click it

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Netflix has many ways to deliver video to FiOS customers. They can use any of the major CDNs or choose to use dozens of transit ISPs (similar to the other CDNs).

It appears Netflix is using (vs avoiding) congested peering points. We keep talking Level 3 and Cogent, but what about all the others transit options for someone as large as Netflix? If all peering points were congested, wouldn't all CDNs and Internet sites have problems?

It seems to me CDNs have been avoiding congestion for many, many years and there is no reason Netflix can't fix this for their customers.

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[Hubrisnxs]

Honestly I wish u were as well versed in the technology and topic as you think you are.

http://www.internetphenomena.com/2014/07/video-provider-and-vpns/


That isn't why vpn's fix the problem for a small amount of users. The information is our there. Unfortunately it doesn't look like you care to understand it. Cognitive dissonance?