HDMI stopped working on my HD DVR yet AGAIN!

[ak2009]

I've been a FiOS Internet customer for years now and I love it! However, it's been less than a month since I signed up for FiOS TV and I'm already repenting for it. I signed up because of the "superior" HD delivered via Fiber Optics etc. Yet from the first day, the technician warned me that the HDMI will not work because of a BUG in the motorola DVR and there is no solution for it. If it works, great, if not, sorry about your luck!

Well, day 2 and the HDMI stopped working, green screen on my 61" Panasonic LCD HDTV and all kinds of messages! FiOS TV support were lame, but they came back to replace the HD DVR. I come home to find the technician replace the box with a similar defective piece and hook up the system using component for video and composite for audio! HORRORS! The sound quality had degraded beyond recognition, and the picture quality on my large screen was noticably bad.

After many hours, and many phone calls with the tech support, I was assured that Verizon/Motorola was releasing a firmware upgrade that would fix the HDMI malfunction. I waited for April 14th, (the upgrade release date) but there was nothing different. Finally, they sent another technician with a "new and improved" box that would work! No such luck. He went on to prove that my HDMI cable that had worked flawlessly with DirecTV for 2 years, was faulty. So he replaced the HDMI cable, got the box to work and was off. 

Well, 2 days later, back to square one. Green screen. HDMI integrity compromised message etc. By now I was so frustrated that I was ready to cancel the stinking "superior" HD from FiOS. More phone calls, no progress. This time round they had the nerve to tell me that my TV was defective and I should contact Panasonic to figure out why HDMI does not work! Talk about shifting blame from this faulty buggy DVR to a TV that has worked flawlessly for years with DirectTV and DVD players etc.

As I read this forum and others on the net, it seems that this issue has bugged customers since 2005! Pretty much every other DVR out there is either superior or has more hard disk space than the verizon motorola box! Has anyone else here had these issues? I've tried looking at the other threads, but the forum does not allow me to reply to those so I can't find if anyone has actually seen Verizon do anything about this defective DVR nonsense. I feel I've been cheated into paying top dollar for an obsolete piece of junk. Please help if you can. A very frustrated and sitting-on-the-fence customer!

[CharlesH]

Getting component cables will fix your issue completely. It also doesn't JUST happen with FiOS TV, it happens to other cable companys that use motorola boxes.

[Jeff1512]

For the time being... can't you use component cables for the video.... and optical cable for your audio from the settop to your amplifier?  That will keep the DD 5.1 in digital format.  The component cables vs. HDMI picture quality is not that noticable at all.  for HDMI, the digital video is converted by the TV, and component it is converted by the settop, then sent to the TV.  Not that big a difference.   I agree, Motorola should work to resolve this issue - but for the time being, this will help you.

[CharlesH]

You are right Jeff.  Some customers report that the colors are actually better with component cable (RED, GREEN, BLUE).

If you don't go with optical, you will need additionally the red and the white audio cable in addition to the component cable.

[ak2009]

On a scale of 1 to 100 for volume adjustments, I have to crank up the volume to 75 just to hear regular speech with I use the red and white cable for audio. The sound is completely degraded. With HDMI cable I only needed to get the volume up to 50 and I could hear crisp clear audio.

For component video, have you seen how SD quality looks on a 61 inch HDTV? Horrible. With HDMI it converts it so it looks much better. Yes, I would say that component displays RGB better, but at the loss of detailed pixels. You can see the colors but at a loss of finer detail. And believe me, this is very noticable on a really large TV.

I guess, I will have to settle for second best picture quality. And I'll have to get an optical cable for volume. It just seems that Verizon promises to give you the best, and after you signup, you're stuck with compromised quality and Verizon will do nothing about it.

[CharlesH]

It's still 1080i, don't confuse component with composite. 

Message Edited by CharlesH on 04-23-2009 10:45 AM

[mrcolon]

This is a common problem that has been shown to be a problem with the Motorola chips used in the DVRs. The problem just happens to be exacerbated with Samsung TV’s.

The use of switching receivers (HDMI home theaters) is going up so the problem is showing up more with those now.

I have been searching for a new receiver and this problem is in my list of requirements.

Note that it is too expensive for Verizon to replace all the DVRs so it is up to us users to buy compatible equipment.

[ak2009]

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@mrcolon wrote:

This is a common problem that has been shown to be a problem with the Motorola chips used in the DVRs. The problem just happens to be exacerbated with Samsung TV’s.

The use of switching receivers (HDMI home theaters) is going up so the problem is showing up more with those now.

I have been searching for a new receiver and this problem is in my list of requirements.

Note that it is too expensive for Verizon to replace all the DVRs so it is up to us users to buy compatible equipment.

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Mr.Colon, you note that it's too expensive for Verizon to replace all the DVR's so it's up to us users to buy compatible equipment! Come on man, are you suggesting that we should throw away our Panasonic HDTV's that cost us $2000 and our Onkyo 5.1 Home Theaters that cost us $1000 and that its not expensive for us to replace our equipment? Just because Verizon/Motorola cannot get their act together?

Please. I beg to differ. If anyone needs to replace/repair equipment, it's Verizon/Mototola, no one else! That DVR probably only cost a hundred bucks to manufacture. We have invested thousands of dollars in buying industry standard and up-to-date equipment. Yet Verizon/motorola keep selling obsolete technology. I'm sorry, this is VERIZON's problem and they are the only one's who need to fix it!

[mrcolon]

I agree with you completely.

I am just stating what the reality will be as there are too few of us with problems and Verizon does not acknowledge the problem (and has not for over a year).

It is always the TV or receiver that has the problem. 

[ak2009]

You are right, Verizon refuses to acknowledge that their DVR has a problem; and it's not just a year, it's FIVE years! See this link where customers have been complaining about the issue since 2005 with no fix in sight.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15011485

Meanwhile, the customer suffers and gets to use old defective DVR technology with new upgraded fiber optics! Ironic isn't it?

[CSimpson]

Probably a combination of Verizon and various TV manufacturers are to blame about poor HDMI implementation.  I have two different HDTV's hooked up via HDMI and have had zero issues with the HDMI handshake issue.  In fact, I just purchased a new Onkyo TX-SR606 receiver for my 55" Sony Projection LCD and have my AppleTV, PS3, and Fios DVR all hooked up to it using cheap HDMI cables purchased from monoprice and everything works flawlessly. 

A few things to try if you are deadset on using HDMI:  Find another new cable and update your TV's firmware (probably need an SD mem card).  If those don't work, then use component+optical cables.  You should see virtually ZERO difference between HDMI and Component.  If you do see a noticable difference, then it could be on the TV-end since video settings for each of your TV's inputs are probably independent from one another. 

BTW... are you running video through your Onkyo receiver?  If so, does it upconvert signals to 1080i? 

[ak2009]

Yes, I'm running the Video through the Onkyo receiver. And it is an upconverting receiver so it does convert the signals to 1080i. In fact SD video also looks pretty good because of this feature. The receiver works perfectly with my DVD player and also worked perfectly with DirecTV DVR for the last two years both using HDMI cables. I have two HDMI inputs (DVD player + DVR) on the receiver and one HDMI output that goes to the TV.

I already have on my list to try the optical cable for digital audio with component for analog video. I will try that to see if it is any better because the Red+White composite cables for audio is just too bad. Is there any difference in optical cables or will a cheap $20 cable work just as well? I did not even think of trying to update the firmware on the TV. I will explore this possibility as well. Thanks for your help.

BTW... do component video cables support 1080i? I thought it only offered HD in 720p, which is why I'm not too happy to use component at all but would rather use HDMI. And on a 61" TV it does make a difference.

[TimSykes]

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@ak2009 wrote:

BTW... do component video cables support 1080i? I thought it only offered HD in 720p, which is why I'm not too happy to use component at all but would rather use HDMI. And on a 61" TV it does make a difference.

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They will support up to 1080p. It is hardware dependent on what resolution you will get.

[CSimpson]

Yes, component cables support up to 1080p and will certainly support 1080i/720p from the Fios HD-DVR.

Keep in mind that the majority of Onkyo receivers will only upconvert SD signals coming from Composite, S-Video, and Component inputs when using HDMI as the output to the TV.  It shouldn't upconvert any signals coming from HDMI inputs, as those are untouched.  So you may see a slight improvement in SD picture quality if you switch to component cables when processing video thru the Onkyo receiver.

[CSimpson]

Here is a chart that came out of my Onkyo manual that displays what signals are actually upconverted.  As you see, HDMI inputs don't get upconverted at all.  Only the other inputs are capable of being upconverted when using HDMI as your output.

[ak2009]

Also, blaming Mototola for the issue is not the solution to the problem. If Verizon is using Motorola DVR's and charging it's customers for those boxes, then it's Verizon's problem. Verizon should push motorola to get their crap working. I'm not a motorola customer. I'm a FiOS TV customer. As far as I'm concerned it's Verizon that's supplying us defective DVR's and causing us heartburn over the issue. It's not our job to get mororola to fix the DVR, it's Verizon's job to do that.

[lswinford]

Charles, I know you mean well, and you are stating what you believe to be the case, but as they used to say, I beg to differ. I had Time Warner Cable with an HDMI cable between my current Mitsubishi TV and their Motorola 6416 III (Note: a Model III, not the Model II offered by Verizon) and NEVER had this problem or any other. As I saw posted here on this forum the TWC picture was never as good, but I was never asked by TWC how old my TV was, not to use HDMI (!?!?!), or if I could buy cables or hardware on my own to make TWC hardware work.  

I switched to Verizon FiOS when I moved last fall, and since then I have had at least four tech visits to address this Green Screen (in my case Blue Screen and then Black) issue, have been accused of messing with cables, have had my internal coax from the router to the Motorola box replaced, (which Verizon installed last fall during the install), have had the router replaced once and the 6416 II TWICE now.

I have had no one from Verizon FiOS tech support admit there was a known problem, and only one of the techs who told me it was a known problem related to the router (which he replaced). I've also been told by several of the techs and some tech support people on the phone that I do not want to even think about requesting the new 7000 series Motorola box since it has a whole list of other problems. 

I've offered my input on what still worked on other boxes in the house when the DVR was "checked out", what I've noticed before and after the incidents (4 incidents last week, with my 3rd 6416 II), and even offered error codes I've seen display on the DVR after an incident and copied down, but absolutely no one has been interested.

I could understand on a standard "swap everything until the problem goes away" if my issues had been isolated incidents, but judging from the comments on this Verizon Forum I see I am just one of the crowd.  

The one difference between me and the rest of the crowd may be that I am a Verizon employee, and have an extreme amount of heartburn at what I see we put our customers through. Since I have friends at ATT and other LECs I can say this has been a source of constant amusement to them.

Since my wife also works for another LEC she finds this both hilarious and extremely frustrating since she can just about count on getting a blue screen when she tries to play something she has recorded.  

[G-Pon]

  If the TV’s in question are Samsung or Sony Bravia you can just quit trying to get the HDMI to work. The execution of the HDMI protocols by many of the sets produced by these 2 mfgrs do not exactly match those of the entire rest of the industry on the entire planet.

I’m not saying they have it wrong necessarily all data protocols are somewhat subject to interpretation. Also subjective is the amount of RAM necessary to process them rapidly enough.

I’m not saying that Motorola and Verizon won’t be able to eventually modify their HDMI protocol deployment to compensate for the chip-sets in those TV’s either, we ARE working on it. But at my house I quit worrying about it, switched to component.

The issue source, if anyone cares, is similar to the way 2 fax machines communicate, they have a process like a “handshake” in which the 2 devices make a friendly agreement upon a transmission rate of speed and other details of the millions per min transactions. The handshake is lost in most of these failures, the agreed upon criteria can not be met and the communication ceases.

A previous post is correct, it is a battle between Motorola and the TV mfgrs in which ComCast, Verizon, CableVision, Brighthouse, EVERYBODY is caught in the middle. I’m going to side with Motorola slightly though because their boxes work so well with most TVs.

Remember this is the industry’s first attempt at a 2 way conversation between a TV and another device; it is a LOT of computer processing, this is a task TV’s have never had to do before.

I have also seen cases where long runs of HDMI cable, bad HDMI cables and bad HDMI ports can cause this behavior too.

If the issue occurs on TV’s other than those mfgrs listed above other measures may succeed in resolving them, but Verizon’s 7000 series Motorola boxes have no greater elasticity in maintaining the HDMI handshake than the 6000 series, the HDMI protocol “stack” is the same on either box.

[spacedebris]

it reminds me of the fight between Sony and toshiba for the HD format for DVD's. There was sony Blu-ray and then the one from toshiba. If you had one it wouldnt work on a player from the other. They battled for a couple of years before toshiba finally surrendered and made Blu-ray the world standard. Same thing is going on with the HDMI handshake issue with samsung and motorola. I agree with you in that I sort of side with motorola. They have a system that works with every other system out there and they shouldnt have to adjust their system to accomodate a single black sheep out there.

That having been said I also see it from the samsung point of view as well. They have a system in place that is superior to a lot of others out there. I know this can be debated but for the most part, samsung has a superior picture to most other tv's out there. So why should they have to change their superior display. But still, a line has to be drawn somewhere where it says "this is the standard and everyones needs to meet at least this level of compatiblity".  Plenty of blame to go around but it leaves the cable companies and especially the consumers in the middle and out in the cold.

[wessock1]

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@G-Pon wrote:

  If the TV’s in question are Samsung or Sony Bravia you can just quit trying to get the HDMI to work. The execution of the HDMI protocols by many of the sets produced by these 2 mfgrs do not exactly match those of the entire rest of the industry on the entire planet.

I’m not saying they have it wrong necessarily all data protocols are somewhat subject to interpretation. Also subjective is the amount of RAM necessary to process them rapidly enough.

I’m not saying that Motorola and Verizon won’t be able to eventually modify their HDMI protocol deployment to compensate for the chip-sets in those TV’s either, we ARE working on it. But at my house I quit worrying about it, switched to component.

The issue source, if anyone cares, is similar to the way 2 fax machines communicate, they have a process like a “handshake” in which the 2 devices make a friendly agreement upon a transmission rate of speed and other details of the millions per min transactions. The handshake is lost in most of these failures, the agreed upon criteria can not be met and the communication ceases.

A previous post is correct, it is a battle between Motorola and the TV mfgrs in which ComCast, Verizon, CableVision, Brighthouse, EVERYBODY is caught in the middle. I’m going to side with Motorola slightly though because their boxes work so well with most TVs.

Remember this is the industry’s first attempt at a 2 way conversation between a TV and another device; it is a LOT of computer processing, this is a task TV’s have never had to do before.

I have also seen cases where long runs of HDMI cable, bad HDMI cables and bad HDMI ports can cause this behavior too.

If the issue occurs on TV’s other than those mfgrs listed above other measures may succeed in resolving them, but Verizon’s 7000 series Motorola boxes have no greater elasticity in maintaining the HDMI handshake than the 6000 series, the HDMI protocol “stack” is the same on either box.

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The problem is that 1) It's not just Samsung and Sony with the problems 2) Samsung and Sony are the 2 most popular HD TV makers, so of course the boxes should be made to work with them, and that 3)The TVs with hdmi issues that were from Samsung, Sony, etc. are older than these boxes and firmware that run them so it should have been addressed already.

Also, Fios, Comcast, etc. aren't exactly caught in the middle because they keep buying these inferior boxes (which are plagued with many more firmware and hardware issues besides HDMI bugs) that they've known have had problems for years.

[G-Pon]

You are correct, the cable companies must assume some responsibility for the vendors they choose for their customers. Watch for a step away from Motorola by Verizon, these things just take time, a LOT of time.