Apple Homekit and SON

[jamespelliott]

Is there a way that I can identify a device currently connected to my SON enabled network and set it to use the 2.4ghz network vs the 5.0? I only ask this because with apple homekit everything is required to be on the same network to work seamlessly. If you split it up things just become unstable and some things dont work properly so I want SON on so Apple believes everything is on the same network. Now some IoT devices use 2.4ghz only and to join then to the network most of these items need your phone to be on the network to pass the credentials or assist in some way with access and authentication. I believe if I can temporarily force my phone to explicitly use 2.4ghz I can join these IoT devices in a stable network. 

I know I can make it all work by spliting the network but things lose connection because apple has so many different things as Hubs in a unified home network they establish; from my apple tvs to the homepods and the phones and ipad. Any Ideas out there besides sending all the Verizon equipment back and installing a 500-dollar NightHawk router and building out my network with them. 

[jamespelliott]

Okay so I went into the network settings and disabled the 6Ghz network permanently because of WPA 1, 2, 3 not being able to be set for each. I kept 2.4 and 5 so that WPA 1, and 2 could remain. When adding devices I did the following. Went into the net settings and turned off 5.0 and 6.0 Ghz networks. Left only the 2.4 and moved all hub devices (Apple TV and minis) to the 2.4 ghz network. Then I added the new devices that can only use 2.4Ghz (CircleView cam and doorbell) to the HomeKit network. Once everything was joined I waited a few days then I turned the 5.0Ghz network back on. Now all devices are on the same network SSID and it seems Apple HomeKit is none the wiser and everything is working fine together. This allows devices that are 5.0 able to use that network which has a faster up and down rate then 2.4. My 2.4 is abou 100MB and 5.0 is around 500MB up and down. Cams have not lost network connection so far. Keep in mind I have a detatched home and if you like in a townhome or appartment you may have trouble on the 2.4 network because the channels being 1, 2, and 6 only your networks might collide and cause devices to loose connection. where detached homes have enough space to keep the channels clean. In these close proximity cases try setting a Static IP for those devices. 

[Cang_Household]

There is a SSID called the IoT SSID created solely for this purpose. Disabling SON to separate out 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz is a deprecated and antiquated approach.

Still using WPA is a security vulnerability.

Also, to be on the same network is a layer 3 concept, while access points, SSIDs, bands whatnot are layer 1 and 2 considerations. Even if you put device 1 on Verizon_alphanum-2.4G, device 2 on Verizon_alphanum-5G, and device 3 on Verizon_alphanum-6G, the three devices are still on the same network regardless. How many SSIDs or bands you have is irrelevant to determine whether they are on the same network.

[jamespelliott]

All I am speaking to is the original question that I asked in this forum and got no solutions to. My answer is to help other Apple HomeKit users. Do you have an Apple HomeKit set up with lights, cam, tv and minis etc. Some devices use only 2.4 frequency others 5 and phone can use 6 now. SON combines 2.4, 5.0, and 6 ghz frequencies under one SSID. 2.4 uses WPA, 5.0 can use WPA 1- 3 standards and 6.0 can only use WPA 2-3 standards which will exclude 2.4 from a combined SON. So when you enable 6.0 SON will automatically create 2.4IoT SSID for you because of WPA standards. It is not for what you wrote. Next the Apple HomeKit requires all devices to be on the same network so if you have multiple SSIDs, devices will lose connection drop in and out not get updates and it just becomes unstable mainly because you will have items that are Hubs and if one goes off the next takes over kind of like a SQL cluster where one server is the master DB. To work around these issues the SON presents a great opportunity but obviously not without its limitations like Apples HomeKit. Some devices only use 2.4 others 5.0 and phones can use 6. To add most IoT's the phone needs to connect to it and pass the network settings along. Well if your phone is on 6 the IoT will fail which brings me to my questions grass roots. I turn SON on disable 6ghz and 5 move all devices to 2.4 making sure primary hub is there too so it is active. Use phone to join device enable 5.0 back and all is right.

Next WPA1 does have its vulnerabilities yes but it still uses encryption and authentication so your average script kitty will have trouble cracking into the network that by the way in your response you said to use a SSID IoT with it enabled so you're still allowing your sec vulnerability. Maybe you were confusing WEP with WPA idk but it is not like there is some state actor wasting their time sitting in the car outside my home trying to break into my router to what means or capturing traffic. Your average hacker is looking for low lying fruit like WEP. Back to your SSID comment I am not sure how verizon splits up these but I am guessing from the behavior of the devices they do this in VLAN or subnet separations. I would have to research and test to fully understand but I really dont care because at the end of the day HomeKit uses the SSID as a network identifier.

[smith6612 · Accepted solution]

So my understanding with Apple's HomeKit is, by "same network" they mean the same Layer 2 Broadcast domain. That might seem like something technical, but in the sense of a home network, it's simple. As long as you aren't doing things like splitting your HomePods up into the Guest Wi-Fi and your phones into your normal Wi-Fi for example, they should work. Or if you enable "client isolation" on the Wi-Fi for security, then that would break the Layer 2 connection needed for HomeKit to work. The HomePods should not care if they are split across 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz.

Most home networks use a network of 192.168.1.1/24. This is the "subnet" or "sub network" and this would support devices holding an IP between 192.168.1.1 to 192.168.1.254.  Your router will typically be 192.168.1.1, and your devices will obtain IP addresses between 192.168.1.2 and 192.168.1.254. As long as your devices have IP addresses within this range, they are on the same network.

Now, there's a rabbit hole I can go down to make what I just said a bit untrue... but for the sake of a home network where you have one router, maybe a few extenders, or a mesh system, it's as simple as I've mentioned.

For the sake of the discussion, I operate a number of apartment networks where people connect Chromecasts, Apple HomeKit enabled devices and speakers, and other devices which require a phone and the device to be on the same network. It doesn't matter if a tenant is across the building, connected to one Wi-Fi network name while their speaker is on another Wi-Fi network name, if the speaker is on 2.4Ghz while the phone is on 5Ghz... the tenant is always able to talk to their device and use it.

Apple HomeKit relies on something called mDNS, or Multicast Discovery. Even if devices are on the same network, some routers do proxy or "optimize" Multicast traffic, since Multicast traffic in volume can crash networks by flooding out to all devices. We call this function "IGMP Snooping." There is also a function Wireless routers perform called IGMPv3 or Multicast Enhancement. Multicast discovery traffic causes Wi-Fi to operate at the slowest possible speed the radio can transmit, and IGMPv3 allows the router to copy and send multicast traffic directly to devices at the fastest possible rate, rather than broadcast it to all devices at the slowest possible rate. This makes the Wi-Fi more efficient, and faster, but some devices/some router implementations break mDNS. If something goes wrong with IGMP Snooping or IGMPv3, Apple HomeKit will struggle. 

Hope that clarifies things 🙂

[smith6612]

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@jamespelliott wrote:

All I am speaking to is the original question that I asked in this forum and got no solutions to. My answer is to help other Apple HomeKit users. Do you have an Apple HomeKit set up with lights, cam, tv and minis etc. Some devices use only 2.4 frequency others 5 and phone can use 6 now. SON combines 2.4, 5.0, and 6 ghz frequencies under one SSID. 2.4 uses WPA, 5.0 can use WPA 1- 3 standards and 6.0 can only use WPA 2-3 standards which will exclude 2.4 from a combined SON. So when you enable 6.0 SON will automatically create 2.4IoT SSID for you because of WPA standards. It is not for what you wrote. Next the Apple HomeKit requires all devices to be on the same network so if you have multiple SSIDs, devices will lose connection drop in and out not get updates and it just becomes unstable mainly because you will have items that are Hubs and if one goes off the next takes over kind of like a SQL cluster where one server is the master DB. To work around these issues the SON presents a great opportunity but obviously not without its limitations like Apples HomeKit. Some devices only use 2.4 others 5.0 and phones can use 6. To add most IoT's the phone needs to connect to it and pass the network settings along. Well if your phone is on 6 the IoT will fail which brings me to my questions grass roots. I turn SON on disable 6ghz and 5 move all devices to 2.4 making sure primary hub is there too so it is active. Use phone to join device enable 5.0 back and all is right.

Next WPA1 does have its vulnerabilities yes but it still uses encryption and authentication so your average script kitty will have trouble cracking into the network that by the way in your response you said to use a SSID IoT with it enabled so you're still allowing your sec vulnerability. Maybe you were confusing WEP with WPA idk but it is not like there is some state actor wasting their time sitting in the car outside my home trying to break into my router to what means or capturing traffic. Your average hacker is looking for low lying fruit like WEP. Back to your SSID comment I am not sure how verizon splits up these but I am guessing from the behavior of the devices they do this in VLAN or subnet separations. I would have to research and test to fully understand but I really dont care because at the end of the day HomeKit uses the SSID as a network identifier.

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Do be VERY careful with WEP or WPA(1). Using either of these modes on modern routers will cap the entire wireless network to Wireless G speeds, at a maximum of 30Mbps. Additionally all of the improvements and enhancements since 802.11 Draft N created 15 years ago, up until now, will be turned off. Many router manufacturers are ripping out support for these encryption schemes as a result.

One thing SON does is enable something called 802.11r, or Fast Roaming. This often breaks IoT or legacy devices, which is why Verizon added the ability to enable an IoT SSID where 802.11r isn't present. Apple devices are usually well behaved in regards to these wireless standards, but hey, whatever works 🙂