Microsoft now lists the Verizon LTE band as supported on the 950

[Luckyshot]

If you go to Microsoft Lumia 950 Specifications - Microsoft - USA on microsoft.com, it now lists Band 13 (700 MHz) as supported.  This is the band that requires Verizon to allow the phone on it's system per FCC regulations and pending network certification.  We need to start hitting up Verizon and Microsoft to see what's up.

I would point out that if you look at the specs listed at the Microsoft Store webpage, Band 13 is not listed.  Is it a typo?

Current listed frequencies:

• Cellular connectivity²
  • GSM network: 850 MHz, 900 MHz, 1800 MHz, 1900 MHz
  • GSM max data speed DL: EGPRS 236.8 kbps
  • GSM max data speed UL: EGPRS 118.4 kbps
  • WCDMA network: Band 1 (2100 MHz), Band 2 (1900 MHz), Band 4 (1700/2100 MHz), Band 5 (850 MHz), Band 8 (900 MHz)
  • WCDMA max data speed DL: 42.2 Mbps (Cat 24)
  • WCDMA max data speed UL: 5.76 Mbps (Cat 6)
  • LTE FDD network: Band 1 (2100 MHz), Band 2 (1900 MHz), Band 3 (1800 MHz), Band 4 (1700/2100 MHz), Band 5 (850MHz), Band 7 (2600 MHz), Band 8 (900MHz), Band 12 (700 MHz), Band 13 (700MHz), Band 20 (800MHz), Band 28 (700 MHz)
  • LTE max data speed DL: 450 Mbps (Cat 9)
  • LTE max data speed UL: 50 Mbps (Cat 6)

[primortal]

Umm you're forgetting the most important bands, CDMA.  The device is still DOA on VZW network without it.

[Luckyshot]

Not true.  CDMA is not the most important band(s).  CDMA is a dying technology that Verizon is moving away from.  A phone can connect to the Verizon network using LTE only.  The phone does need to be VoLTE (voice over LTE) capable and support LTE bands 2, 4, and/or 13.  The 950 does appear to support VoLTE and definitely has Band 2 & 4.  Band 13 is the one that is the most important, however.  Per the FCC, any device supporting Band 13 must be allowed on the VZW network if it passes third-party network certification.

Now, it is true there are some CDMA only areas remaining in more rural areas, but Verizon is moving to LTE only and most metro areas are going to be covered by their LTE network.

[primortal]

I beg to differ...  I still think it's a requirement till VZW is 100% LTE.

Are there other devices that are on VZW network that doesn't have the CDMA bands?

[Luckyshot]

Currently, no.  But the HTC One A9 is supposed to be coming to Verizon in the near future and it has no CDMA capabilities.  Until Verizon is nearly 100% LTE only, they won't be pushing for CDMA-less phones but that doesn't mean you must have CDMA.  You won't be able to connect via the entire tower network though.

http://www.htc.com/us/go/htc-one-a9-unlocked/

[47seijar]

Verizon still requires the CDMA bands because no carrier - Verizon included - has full coverage with LTE. If Microsoft would unlock the CDMA bands that are available on the 950 the phone could be used on Verizon. But Microsoft won't do that because they never bothered to get certification from the FCC for those bands. Microsoft did the bare minimum with the 950 to get it released in the US. Not Verizon's fault that Microsoft couldn't be bothered to make the 950 a priority rather than a placeholder for the upcoming Surface Phone.

[Luckyshot]

1) Verizon can't require the CDMA bands.  The FCC regulations state that they have to allow any device that supports Band 13 as long as it doesn't disrupt Verizon's network.  It is a requirement of Verizon's lease of that frequency band.  Disruption would be something like the phone's software causes the tower authentication firmware to lockup blocking other customers from using the same tower or anything of that sort.  The FCC requirement doesn't specify the device must meet any other qualification.  That's all the third party certification tests for, disruption of the network.  That being said, Verizon has no responsibility to any customer that brings their own phone that doesn't support CDMA when they can't connect in non-LTE areas.

2) I never said it was Verizon's fault that the 950 hasn't been certified, it is the manufacturer's responsibility to get that certification.

[Tidbits]

I suggest to bring it up with the FCC and I bet they will do nothing and by the next major device it will be irrelevant and we'd be arguing about the next device.

I also want to add band 12, band 17, band 28 are not block C or rather band 13 which MS own tech specs on their websites show it doesn't have on both the XL and 950.

So it has no:

CDMA(WCDMA is not compatible and 3G for GSM)

Doesn't have EVDO which is 3G for CDMA

Doesn't have band 13 which is needed for block C.

So explain how is Verizon supposed to support a device and let alone allow it on their network when it doesn't comply with any technical standard even block C regulations give liberty to?

Now let's look at block C in context. All manufacturers can get all technical specifications and testing for compliance. If the hardware is there and it passes security checks Verizon must allow it. If the manufacturer has the hardware but doesn't do the technical standards test Verizon has the right to block it. Make sure you read the subsections in context and not cherry-picked sections.

[Ann154]

The HTC One A9 isn't going to work on Verizon Wireless according to HTC now. http://www.droid-life.com/2016/03/04/htc-one-a9-verizon/

[Luckyshot]

Tidbits, it's not our place to file an FCC complaint.  Microsoft is the only one that can do that and only if they pass certification (which I have no reason to believe they have even attempted) and Verizon denies the phone on it's network.

If you look at the page that I posted in the original post (before this got way out of hand) you will see that Microsoft has Band 13 listed as supported.  That was the point of the original post.  Then it descended into an argument as to CDMA being required.  My position is that it isn't required.  Sure, the phone won't work outside of the LTE network but that isn't brought up in the FCC requirements.  Any phone that supports Band 13 and doesn't disrupt the network (passed 3rd party certification) must be allowed on by Verizon.

Everything I stated is true.  I don't even know that it does support Band 13, only that it is listed as supported on ONE Microsoft webpage.

Also, Band 13 isn't required for block C, Band 13 IS block C in the 700 Mhz band.

Just look at this Microsoft page and tell me it's not listed - Microsoft Lumia 950 Specifications - Microsoft - USA

It was just a question as to which spec pages are actually accurate.

Has anyone actually looked at the page in question and willing to discuss the original issue that was posted?

[Tidbits]

Luckyshot wrote:

Tidbits, it's not our place to file an FCC complaint.  Microsoft is the only one that can do that and only if they pass certification (which I have no reason to believe they have even attempted) and Verizon denies the phone on it's network.

Yes you can complain the the FCC.  If you couldn't then why does it say potential customers, and also why did the complaints from consumers about tethering were looked into? 

If you look at the page that I posted in the original post (before this got way out of hand) you will see that Microsoft has Band 13 listed as supported.  That was the point of the original post.  Then it descended into an argument as to CDMA being required.  My position is that it isn't required.  Sure, the phone won't work outside of the LTE network but that isn't brought up in the FCC requirements.  Any phone that supports Band 13 and doesn't disrupt the network (passed 3rd party certification) must be allowed on by Verizon.

47 CFR 27.16 - Network access requirements for Block C in the 746-757 and 776-787 MHz bands. | US La...

(d) Access requests.

(1) Licensees shall establish and publish clear and reasonable procedures for parties to seek approval to use devices or applications on the licensees' networks. A licensee must also provide to potential customers notice of the customers' rights to request the attachment of a device or application to the licensee's network, and notice of the licensee's process for customers to make such requests, including the relevant network criteria.

    (2) If a licensee determines that a request for access would violate its technical standards or regulatory requirements, the licensee shall expeditiously provide a written response to the requester specifying the basis for denying access and providing an opportunity for the requester to modify its request to satisfy the licensee's concerns.

One of the requirements which is allowed in this section is technical issue that you need CDMA to do voice, text, and such.  Since that is still required manufacturers much include CDMA radios.  In the future this will change, but right now it is needed, and relevant network criteria.  If you think your device is compatible you can actually put in a request on your own.  It doesn't have to be the manufacturer that does it. I marked it in green.

Everything I stated is true.  I don't even know that it does support Band 13, only that it is listed as supported on ONE Microsoft webpage.

Also, Band 13 isn't required for block C, Band 13 IS block C in the 700 Mhz band.

Just look at this Microsoft page and tell me it's not listed - Microsoft Lumia 950 Specifications - Microsoft - USA

It was just a question as to which spec pages are actually accurate.

Has anyone actually looked at the page in question and willing to discuss the original issue that was posted?

Yes I looked and here are 4 pages that show it doesn't and 2 of them are their sales pages.  1 link vs. 4 links from the same source.  Seems like it's a technical error by MS putting it on their mobile pages, but not on their standard pages.

Microsoft Lumia 950 Specifications - Microsoft - Global

Microsoft Lumia 950 XL Specifications - Microsoft - Global

Buy Microsoft Lumia 950 – Unlocked - Microsoft Store

Buy Microsoft Lumia 950 XL – Unlocked - Microsoft Store

Straight off these pages has Band 12, 17, and 28.  No band 13.

Cellular connectivity2

• GSM network: 850 MHz, 900 MHz, 1800 MHz, 1900 MHz
• GSM max data speed DL: EGPRS 296.0 kbps
• GSM max data speed UL: EGPRS 236.8 kbps
• WCDMA network: Band 1 (2100 MHz), Band 2 (1900 MHz), Band 4 (1700/2100 MHz), Band 5 (850 MHz), Band 8 (900 MHz)
• WCDMA max data speed DL: 42.2 Mbps (Cat 24)
• WCDMA max data speed UL: 5.76 Mbps (Cat 6)
• LTE FDD network: Band 1 (2100 MHz), Band 2 (1900 MHz), Band 3 (1800 MHz), Band 4 (1700/2100 MHz), Band 5 (850MHz), Band 7 (2600 MHz), Band 8 (900MHz), Band 12 (700 MHz), Band 17 (700MHz), Band 20 (800MHz), Band 28 (700 MHz)
• TD-LTE network: Band 38 (2570-2620 MHz), Band 40 (2300-2400 MHz)
• LTE max data speed DL: 300 Mbps (Cat 6)
• LTE max data speed UL: 50 Mbps (Cat 6)

So in the end it doesn't even support the technical aspects to even work on the network.  

[Tidbits]

want to add something to this.

Also, Band 13 isn't required for block C, Band 13 IS block C in the 700 Mhz band.

Band 13 on a device is required in order to invoke block c protection.  make sense now?

[Luckyshot]

"One of the requirements which is allowed in this section is technical issue that you need CDMA to do voice, text, and such.  Since that is still required manufacturers much include CDMA radios"

But you don't need CMDA to do voice, text or data on Verizon's LTE network.  Verizon's LTE network supports VoLTE (Voice over LTE) so a phone that supports VoLTE (which the 950 and XL appear to do) does not require CDMA for voice.  Again, and I have said this several times, even if Band 13 is supported and 3rd party certification did not indicate a disruption to normal service, the phones would only be able to connect to LTE enabled towers.  That, in and of itself, probably wouldn't be enough for Verizon to block it as it isn't a disruption to their service.  The customer bringing the phone to the network would have to understand the LTE only limitation.

Also, my only real question is if people think that Microsoft is purposely blocking Band 13 support.  There is a big difference between can't support and won't support.

[Tidbits]

And if it fails where does it fall back on? It's required by law that 911 must work all the time and a liability for example.

[Luckyshot]

"And if it fails where does it fall back on? It's required by law that 911 must work all the time and a liability for example."

911 calls must be allowed through on any tower the phone can connect to regardless of customer status.  If the phone can't connect to the tower, there is no liability.  For example, under your argument, if an AT&T GSM only tower was the only tower within my phones range, they would be liable because I couldn't connect using CDMA.  The only time there is carrier liability is if they block a 911 call that is technically capable of using their network.

"Also any manufacturer can put any spectrum support on any device they want to. FCC regulates the as well. If MS doesn't put it there then it's not any carriers fault at all. It's actually a violation on regulation for a provider to forcibly on their own force a manufacturer to disable anything. Remember Verizon and Bluetooth? Supreme Court ruled Verizon was in the wrong."

This is a moot point, I have never once blamed Verizon for blocking the phone or even blocking Microsoft from supporting Band 13.  I don't know why you are running this around in circles.  Read my previous post, I was was wondering if the device isn't capable of supporting Band 13 or if Microsoft won't....Verizon did not enter that sentence at all.  I already know Verizon's responsibility in this, they are required to carry it if 1) Band 13 is supported, 2) voice/text/data doesn't require CDMA, 3) AND the device passes 3rd party certification.  Of the 3 issues, all of which must be true for Verizon to be at fault, I only know #2 to be absolutely true.  I don't know why you keep defending Verizon from an attack that hasn't been made by me.

[Tidbits]

Luckyshot wrote:

"And if it fails where does it fall back on? It's required by law that 911 must work all the time and a liability for example."

911 calls must be allowed through on any tower the phone can connect to regardless of customer status.  If the phone can't connect to the tower, there is no liability.  For example, under your argument, if an AT&T GSM only tower was the only tower within my phones range, they would be liable because I couldn't connect using CDMA.  The only time there is carrier liability is if they block a 911 call that is technically capable of using their network.

Notice more and more devices are starting to have both CDMA, and GSM radios? So what happens when you are connected to LTE, but the VoLTE portion fails.  You have access to the network, but can't place that call... Then what? There is a liability if you are supposed to have VoLTE to make that call, but it fails for whatever reason and it doesn't have a fall back.  See T-Mobile with Band 12 where they only use it as VoLTE.  They want to test it and ensure it hands off correctly so they won't be liable.

"Also any manufacturer can put any spectrum support on any device they want to. FCC regulates the as well. If MS doesn't put it there then it's not any carriers fault at all. It's actually a violation on regulation for a provider to forcibly on their own force a manufacturer to disable anything. Remember Verizon and Bluetooth? Supreme Court ruled Verizon was in the wrong."

This is a moot point, I have never once blamed Verizon for blocking the phone or even blocking Microsoft from supporting Band 13.  I don't know why you are running this around in circles.  Read my previous post, I was was wondering if the device isn't capable of supporting Band 13 or if Microsoft won't....Verizon did not enter that sentence at all.  I already know Verizon's responsibility in this, they are required to carry it if 1) Band 13 is supported, 2) voice/text/data doesn't require CDMA, 3) AND the device passes 3rd party certification.  Of the 3 issues, all of which must be true for Verizon to be at fault, I only know #2 to be absolutely true.  I don't know why you keep defending Verizon from an attack that hasn't been made by me.

Again I showed you that it is relevant and the FCC deems it relevant as the reason why the rules were put in place.  Unless the FCC is willing to waiver things like E911 liability CDMA as a fall back is going to stay or until Verizon moves all their spectrum over to LTE and nothing but LTE calls can be placed.  Also all Verizon connected devices and certified devices can connect to even GSM carriers for 911 calls since LTE was introduced and they purchased block C.  That's why people can take their unlocked LTE Verizon devices and use them on whatever carrier they want.  Just some food for thought. 

I am not defending Verizon I am showing the rules placed by the FCC and calling it down the middle.  What you think it irrelevant the FCC actually deems it relevant is all I am saying.  I have 2 devices that support band 13 that are imported and yes they work with VoLTE, and I can't get them on Verizon's network.  I have been there and done that. 

The 950 is capable of supporting everything provided they go through FCC testing and get them approved.  The radio itself supports ALL technologies from CDMA to LTE.  It's the same radio in the Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P, iPhone 6, iPhone 6S, and quite a handful of devices out there.  As long as MS doesn't pay the licensing fees to Qualcomm, and doesn't go through FCC testing it will never support those technologies and spectrum.  Similarly to the Nexus 4 where people could use Band 4 LTE on T-Mobile.  Google said it wasn't supported and the next update removed the option, and it was never approved by the FCC.

A little information about me.  I buy unlocked devices since the point the radios could support all radio techs.  The 950 is my last device in a long while where it doesn't support all carriers.  If the Surface Phone doesn't support it then the 950 will be my last phone that doesn't support all carriers.  I am getting tired of carrying 2 phones when I travel.

[Tidbits]

I am just giving technical answer. If you think that's defending them and attacking them then I have no idea how to respond. If I respond saying it's all Verizon fault then it means I am not defending them?  I just went through this with a beta device and tried to use it on Verizon since it has band 13. These are the answers I got from the FCC and Verizon.

[Luckyshot]

And these devices that support both VoLTE and Band 13 passed the 3rd party certification?  FCC testing is a separate matter.  The FCC pretty much certifies that it doesn't cause any undue interference across the entire spectrum, the 3rd party certification that is required certifies that the device doesn't disrupt the Verizon network.  Sure, the device may have the proper frequencies, but if the software causes issues with the carrier's network, they don't have to let it on.

[Tidbits]

They didn't even bring up testing. It didn't meet the requirements for testing. It didn't meet the relevant standards prior to testing. I couldn't even request it to be tested due to.it not having CDMA and was explained some of the technical reasons as I posted here.

You don't have to believe me or not, but it is what it is. People will find outdoor enough when more and more devices start having band 13 or become irrelevant when VoLTE is everywhere and the interoperability between carriers (One of the reasons Sprint dropped Wimax) becomes the standard.

One surefire way would be for someone to build their own phone and go through the motion. Maybe try and get the EFF to do it and then explain the process?

[Tidbits]

Outdoor = out soon

[Tidbits]

Also any manufacturer can put any spectrum support on any device they want to. FCC regulates the as well. If MS doesn't put it there then it's not any carriers fault at all. It's actually a violation on regulation for a provider to forcibly on their own force a manufacturer to disable anything. Remember Verizon and Bluetooth? Supreme Court ruled Verizon was in the wrong.