Still NO Windows Phone 8.1 Update? FCC? Attorney General?

[MadDogFL62]

Weeks of 8.1 release information.  Stories.  Photos.  Videos.  Customers with other carriers have been enjoying their update already.  Microsoft WP Development Team already has new updates out.  And still every Verizon Windows Phone Customer sits with no update.  Some are even being told "no update".

This is year number 3 for me with delayed Windows Updates.  I have filed 4 FCC complaints since 2010.  I have received 3 call backs from Verizon regarding my complaints.  Here is where the problem stems:

Customer Agreement | Verizon Wireless

Yep.  Customer Agreement.  I like the term "agreement" because it makes it sound like a cordial 2-way relationship.  If you read the fine print, you will find out that this is not the case.  Not in any way, shape or form.  And considering the fact that you have to approve the agreement to get a phone or service, well, that's an entirely different argument.  The Verizon agreement does several things...

1. It explains that even if you buy a phone at full face value, Verizon has 100% control of it on THEIR network.
2. It explains that Verizon doesn't have to do a darn thing for you, your service, or your phone.
3. It explains that you can try to sue them, but that there is a limit on damages, blah, blah, blah.

So before you say that you are "toast", let's look at who else plays the "Customer Agreement" game.  You know, large organizations who force you to "agree" before providing service (like you have a choice).  DirectTV, Brighthouse, TimeWarner, Comcast, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Duke Energy, Florida Power and Light, and the list goes on.  And what do all of these organizations have in common?  They all have some kind of government regulatory group in place.

After 4 years; what have I learned? 

1. Complaining on a Verizon forum does nothing.
2. Complaining to Verizon Executives does nothing (they don't even respond to letters, email or phone calls).
3. Those who refuse to pay their bills until they get an update end up getting their service shut off (not me, but I know of a few).
4. The BBB was created because of Verizon and the BBB gets ~50 complaints about Verizon a day.  A waste of time to complain there!
5. Microsoft won't help.  Or, at least, Microsoft won't help those who don't want to help themselves (ahem, Verizon).

HOWEVER, if you look at a telecom company, power company, financial company you will find that every day consumers are working with the Federal and State Government to insure ethical treatment in fees, billing, services, and more.  Government intervention can also be requested in multiple ways with zero cost to the customer.  I have found 2 successful and proven ways to engage the government in your battle with a big company like Verizon.

1. File a complaint with the government organization that oversees compliance "in that industry".  FCC = Telecom  Federal Energy Commission = Power Companies  Federal Reserve Board = Banks ...and so on.
2. Engage State Regulatory Boards, or your State Attorney General.

As I mentioned earlier, this is Round 4 for me with Verizon and their slow or no Windows Phone Updates.  The FCC has worked historically because they require Verizon to contact the customer to close the case you opened with your complaint.  While you get to give Verizon an earful, I still have yet to see any change.  This round I am going to ask for more information.  Names.  Phone Numbers. Email Addresses.  Yep.  Going to give Verizon a little "Can You Hear Me Now?"  In addition, this round I am going to engage the Florida Attorney General.  Florida offers a very easy to use complaint process on the AG Website.  Have a look at the link below.  But before I file my complaint with my AG, I want specifics on delays, how VZW handled my complaint with the FCC,  and I will clearly explain what Verizon was withholding in terms of security and connectivity enhancements for my device.

When I worked for one of the largest companies in the US, the CEO had a rule which was "complaining is fine, as long as you offer a remedy or resolution along with the complaint".  There have been a number of naysayers and complainers out on the Windows Phone Forum over the past several days.  Some are passionate about updating their devices and others just seek to aggravate.  I think we have read enough "opinions".  Some creative or, perhaps, proven ideas to resolve this problem are welcome at this point.  Feel free to use one of my other posts to aggravate others.  I like how it brings those posts to the top of the forum list!  It only takes a moment to voice your complaint and it doesn't cost you a dime.

File a complaint with the Federal Government:  File Complaint | FCC.gov

File a complaint with your State Attorney General:  Florida Attorney General - File A Complaint

[primortal]

This is just based off observation of the roll out with at least the Lumia devices.  I strongly believe that Microsoft is giving the go-head to the carriers.

Why do i say this...  If you look at the US roll out it's only AT&T that rolling out the update to devices and no other carrier.  Why only AT&T?  Is it that AT&T normally gets the exclusive devices first? Microsoft seems to favor AT&T over any other carrier; at lest in my perception.

You would think T-Mobile, Sprint, Cricket or Metro PCS would have started the roll out as well.  Which leads me to be Microsoft is in control of who and when.

Now for HTC and Samsung I have no clue where they are in releasing updates to their devices.

[MadDogFL62]

primortal  You are 100% correct and I have discussed this with folks on Joe Belfiore's WP Team in the past at Microsoft Convergence and WPC.  It's not that AT&T are favored, it's more that AT&T participates in more pre-release activities than the other carriers.  These programs are available to all carriers and I wish Verizon would jump on board.

As you and I have seen with most releases in the past, AT&T may not have an update out the day of the release, but they have historically been the first to step up.  Such pre release programs are out there, hopefully we can get Verizon to participate sooner than later.  (Especially as Microsoft has gone to a more frequent release cycle.)

[primortal]

Then I would say Microsoft needs to provide VZW some really good incentives to participate in the pre-release program

Otherwise we are at the mercy of VZW inept ability to anything but support their network.  Unless we're a fortune 100 company that has all their employees using VZW and threaten to leave unless they provide timely updates to their devices these posts are falling on deft ears.  It's up to Microsoft to get VZW on-board with the program.

You're better off contacting the VZW executives than voicing here.  There those like yourself and me that would love to have these type of updates pretty quickly.  Hence joining the developer preview program.  Though it lack the firmware upgrade I'm patient enough to wait for it.

With Blackberry on it death throes Windows Phone is the new 3rd ecosystem on the block.  Microsoft has ramped up their development cycle with the OS and most likely Windows Phone 9 will be a big enough threat to iPhone and Andriod that they will start taking over second place.  The only problem left is to get the various apps on the OS.  It's a vicious circle; no movement in in popularity no apps; but you need apps to make the OS more popular

My last pet peeve is the Microsoft needs to calm down on all the Lumia devices; its like they are releasing a new phone every other month.  Come out with a few devices once or twice a year and that's it.  One awesome flagship device and a few mid/lower end device.  I heard from many people they don't know what Lumia device to get being there is so many and it's hard to choose.  Look at the 929 (Icon why did Microsoft allow VZW to give it a name?) it's the same as the 930 except for more colors (VZW what is you phobia with colors?) and Nokia/Microsoft is promoting the 930 a lot more than they did with Icon.

I personally would like to have lemon law enacted around devices from carriers.  If you have to return a refurbished device n number of times you should entitled to a brand new device from any manufacture the carrier has at no cost to the customer.  I only buy my phones at the Microsoft Store just for that very reason; my Icon goes off the deep end I go to the store; pay my deductible and walk out with a brand new Icon

[MadDogFL62]

It will be very interesting to see if Microsoft continues to participate in these "exclusive phone" programs with the carriers.  Clearly, AT&T and Verizon have been favored.  You would think that a carrier would want to promote their exclusive phones by keeping them updated on a timely basis.  Oh, wait - AT&T does.

As I mentioned above, this go-around I am not going to allow Verizon to close my FCC case until they provide me with some contacts in the organization who can address these update delays.  Verizon should move their corporate offices to Washington DC where not being accountable is a way of doing business.

I am sure that the Windows Mobile Team has been given all kinds of marching orders from Nokia leaders new and old.  Come up with a high end replacement for the 1520.  Come out with low end phones for Europe and Asia.  Come up with a selfie phone for those under 18 years of age.  And probably more to come until the new OS (Common Windows Platform) hits in 2015.  I also wonder what phones will be supported with that OS at THAT time?

I think you and I are of the same mindset; Give your money to Microsoft by buying your Windows Phones from the Microsoft Store, add the warranty, and keep running DP updates as they are a dot-version or so ahead of Verizon.  I just ready that the Debian Red update is next and expected to hit in November 2014.  (Here we go again.)  Worse case is that the phone gets crushed or bricked - in which the Microsoft Store replaces it after deductible!  It's a complicated game to play, but contracts and other barriers to working with Verizon don't really leave many other choices.  I wonder if new ICONS being sold today have 8.1 Cyan on them already?

[47seijar]

Icons sold today do NOT have the Cyan update.

[primortal]

They wouldn't.  Those devices have already the OS installed and packaged up. Nokia/Microsoft isn't going to unpack them and install Windows Phone 8.1+Cyan and repackaged...

[drako357]

MadDogFL62 several weeks back I read your posts and thought he is very upset... is he taking this too far?  But now I am starting to ask myself... "Self, is Verizon treating me like a valued customer?"  In all honesty I would have to say no, an why is this?  Well like an idiot I pay my bills on time and have so for the past 10+ years.  Have I misrepresented my self and/or used my account in a less than honorable way... no.  After a close review of how I have been treated I can only say it is because I have a Windows Phone.  Let's see, I had a BlackBerry Storm and Droid Incredible and I never had issues with phone updates and in store service like I've had with my Windows Phone.  I am tired of being treated like garbage and with my contract end nearing it looks more and more like I will choose a new carrier.  I will be more than happy to submit a complaint with the FCC, BBB and anyone who will listen... but to be honest I don't think it is in Verizon's nature... I believe they have an agenda fueled by upper management and short of losing a large portion of their user base it's not going to change.

[47seijar]

Verizon isn't intentionally mistreating anybody. But with WP's low (and sinking fast) marketshare it's just not a priority. Frustrating, but it's reality. And if your phone is currently operating smoothly, as WP8 phones are known to do, then what's the hurry? They'll get the update out when it's ready and when they're ready. Meanwhile, enjoy a great phone!

[havermeyer]

Happy with the phone.  Happy with the operating system.  Expect to be happy with the improvements to the operating system.  Not happy with the service provider.

[harryandruss]

I agree completely with everything you have said. I have been a customer since 2004, and am very wise to the Verizon ways. This update delay is just them getting people to buy the new HTC and they will release it with full 8.1 capabilities. Us HTC 8x owners will wait until it is tested further, "because, well...your phone is OLDER and well...the testing has to see if it works with them, as the NEW HTC, well it's all complete".

I love my Windows Phone. I love my HTC 8x, but this is typical garbage from Verizon in a long, LOOOOONG, long, history of being who they are. Verizon.

[MadDogFL62]

<< Duplicate post.  See Re: Windows Phone DAY at Verizon 8/19/14 >>

Post edited by: Verizon Moderator

[Chipeast]

I agree and support all of your posts @MadDogFL62. Anyone know why the Nokia firmware updates cannot be included in the DP program? Any chance that Microsoft includes firmware updates in the DP program now that they purchased that division of Nokia? Why can Iphone update their devices without going through Verizon?

All of this makes me strongly reconsider switching to ATT. Sure there coverage is not as good in Washington State but why support a company that does not listen to it's customers!?

[jharris326]

From working many years with computers Microsoft has traditionally shied away from releasing thru the Development channel any and all "drivers".  Those are traditionally a function of the hardware supplier and with most things they don't like to rock the boat.  I would hope though that Microsoft would maybe consider releasing thru Windows Update or even thru their WSUS channel those updates in the future.  Who knows what they are going to do now that they are getting more into hardware.

[nemz]

So what you're saying is that even though you know that VZW has a user agreement that says you aren't entitled to an update, you still want to flood government agencies with complaints of something they legally can't do anything about? Just to get VZW's attention?  Sure you can file a complaint and they are required to respond to it, but they can't do anything about it other than give you a generic response and say that it has been brought to the attention of Verizon.  In the mean time you're taking the time of government workers that WE pay taxes to employ just to deal with a flood of complaints about a non-essential phone update?  We can't put that much stress on the government offices for something they can do nothing about.  You're best off complaining to Microsoft about how Verizon treats WP, eventually they might have a real case to bring to the FCC about how Verizon hinders the WP market.

[Chipeast]

nemz  Not sure why this argument is brought up so often. VZW is regulated by the FCC and the FCC can absolutely do something about it. Anyone that works at a high level for a regulated company does not want a slew of complaints to the FCC, Attorney Generals Office or regulating body about their company.

From the FCC webpage:

"The FCC does not regulate contractual arrangements with cellular providers, but does handle complaints about wireless service. You may file a complaint with the FCC by using the FCC’s on-line complaint form."

In reality you need to complain to Microsoft and the FCC.

[nemz]

Tell me, how does this have anything to do with your service?  Does the lack of an update somehow inhibit your current service or device? NO.  The FCC can only handle things that VZW is obligated to provide for you.  Nowhere in your service agreement does it say that you are entitled to an OS update.  Unless it has a real impact on your current service, the FCC can do nothing about it.  Complaining to the FCC that you haven't got your WP8.1 update that Verizon NEVER actually promised you is only going to take some poor (removed) away from doing real work to send you an email that sounds like the FCC actually cares about your complaint.  Just because they are required to follow-up on every complaint doesn't mean they are going to do anything about it.  If you could actually make a case that your phone won't work correctly without the update, then you might actually have a chance.

>> Edited to comply with the Verizon Wireless Terms of Service <<

Edited by:  Verizon Moderator

[MadDogFL62]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.  I - JUST - LIKE - TO - HEAR - MYSELF - TALK. 

Want to know what this post is about?  Stop typing and read the first post in the thread. 

The FCC didn't regulate billing - until Verizon started to mess with their customers.  The FCC didn't regulate bait and switch selling - until AT&T and Verizon got caught.  The FCC can't regulate Verizon putting limits on customer bandwidth based on usage.  Really?  Just watch.  VZW already has 1 FCC warning.  The hammer is coming.

All of the regulation and change that Verizon now (and is going to) face is the result of direct customer complaints with the FCC.  File your complaint today - it is never too late.  And after 6+ weeks of waiting - late seems to be the name of the game.  www.fcc.gov/complaints

In addition, you have access to free legal assistance by also communicating your complaint with your State Attorney's Office.  Include your communication with FCC.

Last... If you are unsure how and what to communicate, follow the instructions on this post:  The FCC and your 8.1 Cyan Update

[nemz]

Why don't you show some proof that the FCC has actually done anything for your complaints?  Billing regulation is within their jurisdiction.  Bad business practices will get their attention.  Your 8.1 update is an amenity, not a necessity.  You don't NEED it for anything, and there is no impact to you as a customer if VZW doesn't provide it.  Other than a bunch of angry customers, there is no legal impact whatsoever to not providing an update unless it is critical to the device's function.  The bandwidth issue is a grey area which is why it's going to take awhile for that decision to come through without appeal from either side, but trust me when I say there is no possible chance that the FCC will actually bring a case to VZW for not providing non-essential updates.

Let me tell you a little story of when I used to do lab testing for a pharmaceutical company.  They produced some pretty heavy synthetic opiates. Whenever a bunch of junkies would accumulate enough complaints for a specific lot "not being strong enough" (they somehow thought that they could get free drugs by complaining?), we would be notified by the FDA of a customer complaint.  Knowing that these complaints were complete BS created by addicts, the FDA was required to follow up on these complaints and notify us.  We would spend a day sampling the old lots, testing them, and creating a report to show that absolutely nothing was wrong with the product.  This would cover our company's accountability and the FDA would be satisfied.  They would then email or call the dissatisfied users with a generic response telling them nothing was wrong with the drug.  Within a few more weeks we'd get the same complaint for another lot.  Same cycle.  Just because you get a response doesn't mean they will do anything for you, especially if its for something that you are not entitled to.  It just wastes everyone's time because they are required to follow up.  I know a bit about how government agencies interact with businesses and I don't think you're going to get anywhere with this one.  Show me a response from the FCC that show's they are doing something and we'll talk.

[Chipeast]

Pretty bad example considering that regulation, competition and pricing in the US drug industry are the most corrupt and in need of change in the entire world. By your example we should be paying $300 a month for the same phone service they get in Europe and wait 5 years for that new firmware upgrade. I think you need to go back to the lab.

[nemz]

     Nothing you just said had any relevance to the conversation.  I was talking about customer complaints and how government agencies handle them. The FDA doesn't handle anything with pricing and drug approval is a bit more in-depth than firmware updates.  So you can go off on tangents and try to make it seem like I said something completely unrelated.  You obviously have no idea where you're going with that.  Show me anything more than a generic response from the FCC or Verizon and I'll eat my words.  They will not seek further action for something Verizon is not legally obligated to do. Go ahead and file your complaints but in the end when they haven't done anything for you, just know that you wasted everyone's time.