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FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?

I just got FiOS installed. Went incredibly smoothly, my network swapped right over from Comcast and the HD picture is spectacular.

Here's the rub. I replaced

one Comcast Moto STB and a TiVo Series 2 DVR, Moto Cable Modem & Netgear Wifi router

with

FiOS Moto STD STB and FiOS Moto HD DVR plus two digital converters, Verizon Actiontec MI424WR Wireless Router and FiOS Tellabs 612 indoor ONT.

I was doing some work with an energy management startup and had an Energy Detective (http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html) installed in my load panel to monitor my power consumption and immediately noticed my power use go up. Seems from posts on DSL Reports (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18599695?hilite=ont+612+power+consumption) that the ONT draws 20-40 watts and the Router draws a whopping 60 watts continuously.

I wonder when these companies are going to start waking up to the fact that broadband, DVRs and HDTVs (not to mention Wiis and XBoxes) are a major contributor to the country's increased power consumption and carbon footprint. We should all be demanding higher efficiency electronics. Verizon gets the services revenue and the triple play is a good deal for $99 bucks but we get to pay and extra $10 per month to power their gear!

Has anyone heard of Verizon or Moto's plans for EnergyStar compliant STB's???

Comments

Kathleen

Excellent question, mjkboston. Unfortunately, I do not have an answer for that question. I'll have to look into here at Verizon and find out. Stay tuned...

Regards,

Kathleen

Verizon Forums Team Administrator

Techman28

I'm going to toss this around and see who can answer this question and I'll reply later in the afternoon

dttuner

What happened to receiving an answer to this thread "this afternoon?" It's been almost a month since we've heard from Verizon on this issue.

The power consumption levels of your equipment is unacceptable, and Verizon needs to provide it's customer's with an environmentally sound solution ASAP.

Techman28

I have been asking around and don't have any exact #'s to give but this post has not been forgotten.

FranG

I'm glad I fournd this thread and am not the only one concerned about energy conservation.

My electric bill has also increased since FIOS.

Even with the power "off", I can hear the DVR box processing something. Is there a low power setting that I can't find.

I would like to shut off electricity to the DVR, the STB's, and the modem when not in use. I do this with my computer nightly. Also, I don't like to have my modem up all night.

Will this cause a problem with any of the settings?

Techman28

I'm just curious how everyone is talking about energy consumption which is great but how is the affecting your electric bills. Is it greatly or just a small amount. Also Turning off the power to the equipment shouldn't affect your box.

Pyao

Your DVR would need to be consuming electricity for scheduled programming. If you don't need to record then you could unplug it.

I guess you can power off the router when not in use.

MeatChicken1

The DVR Drive is always spinning & recording the channels, even when the box is "off", 24/7, & even if there is nothing set to record.

To test this, you can go to, say, ch 600 & shut the box "off" with nothing recording.... Come back an hour or 5 hours later, turn the box on, hit rewind, & you will see that you can rewind back into the times that the box was "off", meaning the channel has been constantly recording to the drive.

There should be an "advanced" setting where people can choose for many of these power hungry "off" modes to be truly shut "off".

This would save both electricity/costs, & wear & tear on the box/drive. Functions such as keeping the time & record scheduling do not take much power, it's the drive constantly recording & 2 tuners being on all the time eating the electricity....

Message Edited by MeatChicken on 12-31-2008 01:34 PM

Message Edited by MeatChicken on 12-31-2008 02:00 PM

tsk

I'd like to start first by pointing out that this is a perfect case of where one should not believe everything they read, especially on the internet. DSLR is indeed a generally trusted forum with a large number of very helpful participants, however this does not imply that everything posted there should be taken as gospel.

I would extend this note further to my posting here - there is absolutely no reason anyone should blindly take my word as-is without doing their own research to confirm or refute this information.

The first thing I did when I saw the referenced post about the Actiontec MI424WR consuming 60 watts (which I thought was absurd) was to check the router and its powersupply for ratings. The power brick on my Rev D is rated for an output of a whopping 15 watts. That is only a quarter of what the DSLR post notes, and if the router did in fact try to consume 60 watts the power brick likely would not survive.

Next, I plugged the router into my WattsUp Pro (similar to a Kill-a-Watt) and noted that it was using about 13.2 watts consistently with the wireless radio disabled. When I enabled the wireless this went up by less than anoher half watt (13.6). For any home user with broadband internet access, a router should be standard equipment and if wireless is used then a wireless access point would be required regardless. Essentially the point here is that at least in my case the MI424WR wouldn't add to my household power consumption over any other broadband internet service.

Next, I moved on to the PS/BBU/ONT. I too have an indoor 612 (but mounted in the environmental outdoor enclosure despite it being indoor).

I measured around 15 watts "idle", but noted that it would occasionally rise to about 16.2 watts for short periods then drop down to 14.8-15.4 again.
After allowing the ONT to run on battery for a while (20 minutes) I noted that consumption moved up by 11.6 watts and slowly went down after a while, presumably as the battery was nearing full charge again. I didn't allow the battery to discharge significantly, however it is possible that a deeper discharge would result in a higher charging rate but I would not expect it to be considerably higher (charging a sealed lead-acid battery too rapidly is not a good idea). If anyone has specs on the charging rate, or how long it takes to fully charge a drained battery it would be relatively easy to calculate the actual increase here, but since this is a rare event I wouldn't include it as being relevant to this discussion. This would also be seen as initial "consumption" but in fact is simply energy storage for later use.
When using my phone, I noted power consumption increased by about 1.2 watts. This was the same with both my self-powered remote phones as well as my basic plain-vanilla line-powered phone, used primarily during power outages.
With incoming calls (phone ringing), I noiced a negligible increase (perhaps just .1 watts). This was likely due to the fact that my phones all have electronic ringers and so would draw very little current.

As a side point, I had previously validated the readings on my WattsUp Pro using my Fluke 189/410 combination so I can trust the readings are reasonably accurate.

For mjkboston - did you happen to take note of the power consumption of your original Motorola Cable Modem and Netgear wireless router? If combined they used less than about 30 watts then in my home I would have higher power costs after switching to FiOS. However, your experience may be different. Just because you see an increased household usage based on readings from your Energy Detective does not mean it is due entirely to FiOS. This is why I like portable units like a Kill-A-Watt or WattsUp, since they allow me to determine actual usage of specific devices. On a month-month basis, I regularly see my household usage vary considerably (based on my utility statements) even when I haven't apparently done anything different.

For Kathleen, Techman28, and the other Verizon reps that come around here: Something that would be helpful is for Verizon to post or otherwise make available the expected/rated power consumption of the equipment placed at the resident, including the PSU, BBU, ONT, and wireless router. Every customer must agree and sign the Terms-of-Service which includes a note that the customer is responsible for providing power to these devices, but it does not provide any guidance on what to expect.

Justin46

Very good post tsk! Facts, not fiction or guesses. I have been meaning to use my Kill-a-Watt to do just what you did, just haven't gotten around to it, now you have saved me the time and trouble.

A question: do you plan to do any measurements on the STBs? That is another piece that does need to be quantified.

Thank you.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

Message Edited by Justin on 12-31-2008 02:02 PM

tsk

@MeatChicken wrote:
The DVR Drive is always spinning & recording the channels, even when the box is "off", 24/7, & even if there is nothing set to record.

This one caught my attention so I decided to check this behavior myself. Yes I knew the 6416 maintained a buffer of "live" TV to allow you to pause and rewind, but I did not expect this to continue when the unit is powered off. In fact, the generic Motorola guide for this DVR specifically indicates that powering off would erase your live buffer.

It seems the Verizon-provided units, however, do always record live TV regardless of their power state. I confirmed this by turning off the STB for a few minutes, then turning it on and "rewinding" the channel. Sure enough not one second was lost.

I then took some readings with my WattsUp Pro and became somewhat dissapointed. When the DVR was powered on, it was consuming around 32.2 watts continually. When I started recording a second channel while watching the first, consumption increased by about 0.2 watts. Now the dissappointing part: When I stopped the recording and turned the DVR off, power usage remained at 31.7 watts!

I can't say definitively, but I am wondering if this is what mjkboston was seeing as part of the increased household usage. This certainly was unexpected for me and definitely very dissapointing. A powered-off device that should be doing absolutely nothing that still uses over 30 watts is truly a waste.

Each DVR would increase household usage by 0.72KWH per day, or about 21.6 KWH each month. On Long Island, NY where our electric rates are already high, this would increase our monthly costs by about $8 (using current rates) or almost $100 per year. This would be regardless of whether the DVR was actually used or not - as long as it is plugged in it is using a bit of power.

While $8/month may not sound like a signficant amount (it is just over a quarter a day), that is $8 I'd rather spend elsewhere. It is also not very "green" and is nothing more than a pure waste of our resources. I shudder when I think of how many DVRs Verizon has deployed, with each one needlessly wasting electric 24/7 while serving no purpose. This waste could otherwise power entire blocks of homes.

I would second MeatChicken's suggestion for Verizon to offer a "Power Save" option that can be enabled. Better yet, the recording of live TV should stop when the box is powered off all the time, especially since this would seem to be Motorola's intent and default configuration. I would also want Verizon to confirm that there is nothing else needlessly drawing power when the DVR is not turned on (IE: perhaps the tuners shouldn't need to be powered unless a program is being recorded)

Message Edited by tsk on 12-31-2008 12:54 PM

Justin46

@tsk wrote:
I would second MeatChicken's suggestion for Verizon to offer a "Power Save" option that can be enabled. Better yet, the recording of live TV should stop when the box is powered off all the time, especially since this would seem to be Motorola's intent and default configuration. I would also want Verizon to confirm that there is nothing else needlessly drawing power when the DVR is not turned on (IE: perhaps the tuners shouldn't need to be powered unless a program is being recorded)

I disagree with the statement I highlighted. My Motorola User Guide for the QIP6416 (521696-001 rev B dated 7/05) very clearly says "Please note the hard drive will stay on even when the set-top is turned off."

And I disagree with MeatChicken's suggestion: if Verizon/Motorola offered that option, some people would use it, and then they would miss a recording, and always blame Verizon,and there would be even more complaining here than there is now. Far better IMHO to just leave it like it is for the existing millions of STBs out there, and focus on being greener in the next generation of boxes.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

tsk

@Justin wrote:
And I disagree with MeatChicken's suggestion: if Verizon/Motorola offered that option, some people would use it, and then they would miss a recording, and always blame Verizon,and there would be even more complaining here than there is now. Far better IMHO to just leave it like it is for the existing millions of STBs out there, and focus on being greener in the next generation of boxes.

Actually that is not what I said (that you could not record while it was powered off). You are making a very big assumption and that is that the device must remain fully-powered 100% of the time in order to perform scheduled recordings. Other devices do this just fine and do in fact have lower power consumption when turned off while still being able to perform recordings. For what it is worth I still have a 15-year old VCR (remember those?) that had a builtin timer that would turn the VCR on, tune to the specified channel, record for the specified time, then turn off. It could do this four times with one schedule. When turned off (but with the "timer" enabled) it would consume less than 5 watts, far less than when it was turned on.

For over a decade PCs have been able to "wake" themselves through their BIOS (yes, I have two Asus boards that could do this). VCRs have been able to do it for longer. Other DVRs, such as the SA8300, reportedly do this. It is devices that continue to record the live TV buffer that have this problem, and yes Tivo is just as guilty here. There are plenty of folks that similarly disagree with this (on Tivos) and desire a way to disable this feature to significantly reduce power usage when "powered off". This is what I would like to see as either an optional feature or even the default with the Verizon QIP6416.

Edit: I might also point out that according to Seagate's specs, the DB35 series drives (such as the one in the Motorola DVR) have an average idle power consumption of 8 watts. Clearly simply keeping the drive spinning is not the only waste here.

The fact that the DVR is always recording live TV, whether it is powered on or not, means that it in fact is never powered off and is permanently "on". It isn't clear the purpose of the power button here.

Message Edited by tsk on 12-31-2008 07:04 PM

MeatChicken1

@Justin wrote:
@tsk wrote:
I would second MeatChicken's suggestion for Verizon to offer a "Power Save" option that can be enabled. Better yet, the recording of live TV should stop when the box is powered off all the time, especially since this would seem to be Motorola's intent and default configuration. I would also want Verizon to confirm that there is nothing else needlessly drawing power when the DVR is not turned on (IE: perhaps the tuners shouldn't need to be powered unless a program is being recorded)
I disagree with the statement I highlighted. My Motorola User Guide for the QIP6416 (521696-001 rev B dated 7/05) very clearly says "Please note the hard drive will stay on even when the set-top is turned off."
And I disagree with MeatChicken's suggestion: if Verizon/Motorola offered that option, some people would use it, and then they would miss a recording, and always blame Verizon,and there would be even more complaining here than there is now. Far better IMHO to just leave it like it is for the existing millions of STBs out there, and focus on being greener in the next generation of boxes.
__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

You misunderstand the original post. If the suggested power save option was "on" , no one would miss a recording. The proposed setting would simply stop the drive circuits & gears from constantly recording & spinning for no reason when you shut the box off, but when a scheduled recording time arrives, the drive & tuner would "wake up" & record as it always does. Your microwave, for example, if it has a timer function, doesn't need to spin the platter all day if a cooking time is set to start 5 hours from now. The drive & tuner should be able to "go to sleep, rather than spin & record at "full blast", using excessive power, when the box is shut off. This would have nothing to do with anyone "missing recordings" as you seem to have suggested. Weather this sort of option can be enabled or added into in the firmware I don't know, but as other posters have mentioned, everything from VCR's to clock radios have been able to have timers that put the main circuits to "sleep" , so it would seem do-able.

Message Edited by MeatChicken on 01-01-2009 10:46 AM

Message Edited by MeatChicken on 01-01-2009 10:47 AM

prisaz

@mjkboston wrote:
I just got FiOS installed. Went incredibly smoothly, my network swapped right over from Comcast and the HD picture is spectacular.
Here's the rub. I replaced
one Comcast Moto STB and a TiVo Series 2 DVR, Moto Cable Modem & Netgear Wifi router
with
FiOS Moto STD STB and FiOS Moto HD DVR plus two digital converters, Verizon Actiontec MI424WR Wireless Router and FiOS Tellabs 612 indoor ONT.
I was doing some work with an energy management startup and had an Energy Detective (http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html) installed in my load panel to monitor my power consumption and immediately noticed my power use go up. Seems from posts on DSL Reports (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18599695?hilite=ont+612+power+consumption) that the ONT draws 20-40 watts and the Router draws a whopping 60 watts continuously.
I wonder when these companies are going to start waking up to the fact that broadband, DVRs and HDTVs (not to mention Wiis and XBoxes) are a major contributor to the country's increased power consumption and carbon footprint. We should all be demanding higher efficiency electronics. Verizon gets the services revenue and the triple play is a good deal for $99 bucks but we get to pay and extra $10 per month to power their gear!
Has anyone heard of Verizon or Moto's plans for EnergyStar compliant STB's???

YES! If you take all the power requirements for the line out of the CO and give it to the customer. You get a whopping big energy start for you Central Offices and the customer now foots the bill. I seem to remember Verizon getting big praises for reducing their consumption.

FIOSBill

I work with the ENERGY STAR programs, and there are indeed product specs for STBs that Verizon could adopt for new equipment. I would be happy to put the right folks in touch with the ENERGY STAR program staff to help this along.

prisaz

@FIOSBill wrote:
I work with the ENERGY STAR programs, and there are indeed product specs for STBs that Verizon could adopt for new equipment. I would be happy to put the right folks in touch with the ENERGY STAR program staff to help this along.

I guess Motorola would need to go after the rating. It would be nice to see little or no power consumption when the box is off.

One link.

http://www.energystar.gov/

For those who really wish to be green.

http://www.greenhomeguide.org/what_makes_a_green_home/index.html

Eddie29

I was turning my router off at night, and experiencing problems with the on-demand features on the STB. Verizon cust serv told me to stop turning it off at night to solve the problem. I can hear the STBs hummingand feel the heat even when they are turned off. The router glows brightly 24/7. Down in the basement, more Fios equipment is comsuming enery around the clock.

My electric bill is definitely up. Any answers from Verizon?

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