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settop box, cablecard or neither?

AlanLinde

I'm about to move from rabbit ears (with very old analog TV sets only) to FIOS and will subscribe to the basic (essentials) plan (Montgomery Co,. MD). Verizon's web site says "You can watch FiOS TV Local Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) local digital channels without a Set-Top Box or CableCARD plugged into the Digital Cable Ready (DCR) slot." Does this include ALL channels in the basic service or literally only the local area broadcast stations; can I receive e.g. Discovery or the included movie channels? I ask because I'm about to buy a digital TV set and I'd prefer not to have a settop box (or cablecard really) and few current sets appear to have the cablecard slot (which surprises me).

Thanks for any/all help ... Alan

Comments

Kingscup

If your tv has a qam tuner(which doesn't sound like it), you will be able to watch local SD and HD channels along with the audio music channels. All other channels are encrypted and require a stb or cable cards.

AlanLinde

Unfortunately that's what I was dreading; Verizon's web indicates that. I do need to buy new sets & will get QAM tuners but, assuming you are correct, then what I don't understand is:

a) why the basic service non-local channels are encrypted since one cannot get them without the FIOS connection

and

b) why are so few new TVs cablecard ready?

Is this a conspiracy to make consumers pay for rental of a settop box (or cablecard)? I'm not interested in the services that require a stb; all I want is high quality reception of the standard fare with a minimum of 'stuff' cluttering up the room.

dvhart

I'd like to see where the website says you don't need an STB. I tried to return mine (since my HDTV does have a QAM tuner and can tune all the local SD and HD stations - and is doing so now) but they turned off my service when I returned the box. I had to sign-up for new service and the rep said I had to have some kind of STB on my bill or she couldn't process the order. So now I have an SD STB on my account free for a year (but not in my house, they haven't delivered it yet) and I'm watching the local SD and HD stations via my TVs QAM tuner. In a year I'll have to call them again and see if they can drop the box from my account without disabling service.

http://dvhart.com/content/blog/dvhart/verizon_sucks

G-Pon

I’ve heard the entire industry is moving away from cable card technology, this is why so few TVs have the port anymore.

The above postings are accurate, many channels & some “radio” will be visible without the cable box on the right kind of TVs, not the channels I watch either though, I must be honest with you there.

There is no conspiracy in the sinister sense, but there is a chain of dollars that drives the issue to some degree: The station needs to be paid to keep running, they charge the cable companies to re-broadcast the content, the cable company charges the customer by renting them a set-top-box. In many cases the non-box-required stations may be charging the cable company to re-broadcast the signal, also making it seem to the cable company they are a victim of a conspiracy of sorts too.

philhu

>I’ve heard the entire industry is moving away from cable card technology, this is why so few TVs have the port anymore.

That is totally untrue.

Cablecards are very popular and mandated by Federal Law to be available. It is the Cable companies that are trying to make everyone think the technology is dead so they won't have to supply them.

TV's do not have the slot since it is a very expensive item to put in a TV and Cable companies 'proved' using statistacally wrong math, that the cards are not needed. They do this because the make alot more on DVR rental than Cablecard rental. ($16 vs. $3 a month).

Tivo's and others have cable card slots and thrive on them!!!

AlanLinde

Philhu is certainly correct. Federal law mandates that all cable (inc fios) tv suppliers make cablecards available (I think from July 2008). G-Pon should check within Verizon to ensure that they are in compliance with the law. Additionally I think he/she should then post a correction so that there can be no doubt about this. What is really surprising about this is that there is apparently no requirement that new digital TVs (at least some models from all manufacturers) include the capability to use the cards. My limited searching on the web indicates that a couple of years ago cablecard ready TVs were much more common.

Dvhart: in my original post the sentence in quotes ("You can watch FiOS TV Local Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) local digital channels without a Set-Top Box or CableCARD plugged into the Digital Cable Ready (DCR) slot.") was a cut and paste from a Verizon web page; I've tried to locate it again (using the same search procedure!) without success; it was in a FAQ page.

As for G-Pon's 'explanation': how naive of me – I thought one paid a fee for the TV service. Isn't that to cover the costs of supply? Of course content suppliers have to make a $ but the extra charges levied by Verizon (& other cable companies) for rental of stbs when they are not necessary is just over the top; dvhart is being ripped off & I may well end up in the same situation.

For those who wish to use stbs there appears to be no difficulty (apart from $$?); for those of us who prefer a simpler system without unnecessary equipment clutter it seems that the deck is stacked against us. This needs to change.

If anyone at Verizon is really listening, here is a great opportunity for them to take a lead in customer service.

KenAF

AlanLinde wrote:

I'm about to move from rabbit ears (with very old analog TV sets only) to FIOS and will subscribe to the basic (essentials) plan (Montgomery Co,. MD). Verizon's web site says "You can watch FiOS TV Local Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) local digital channels without a Set-Top Box or CableCARD plugged into the Digital Cable Ready (DCR) slot." Does this include ALL channels in the basic service or literally only the local area broadcast stations; can I receive e.g. Discovery or the included movie channels? I ask because I'm about to buy a digital TV set and I'd prefer not to have a settop box (or cablecard really) and few current sets appear to have the cablecard slot (which surprises me).

Thanks for any/all help ... Alan

Most TVs sold today include QAM tuners. With a QAM tuner, you can tune all local SD and HD channels, plus music channels, but you cannot tune any cable channels. All cable channels are encrypted. To receive cable channels like USA, TNT, and ESPN, you would need a Verizon STB/DVR, or alternatively, a TV or STB/DVR with a CableCard.

In my opinion, you need a DVR to take full advantage of FiOS service. I use a TivoHD with a 1TB drive (160+ HD hours capacity), but many do just fine with the Verizon DVR (20-25 HD hours capacity).

philhu wrote:

>I’ve heard the entire industry is moving away from cable card technology, this is why so few TVs have the port anymore.

That is totally untrue.

Cablecards are very popular and mandated by Federal Law to be available. It is the Cable companies that are trying to make everyone think the technology is dead so they won't have to supply them.

TV's do not have the slot since it is a very expensive item to put in a TV and Cable companies 'proved' using statistacally wrong math, that the cards are not needed. They do this because the make alot more on DVR rental than Cablecard rental. ($16 vs. $3 a month).

As noted above, federal law requires all cable systems with 750MHz (or more) bandwidth make CableCards available. Verizon FiOS has a 860MHz system.

It is also true that most television manufacturers have temporarily abandoned CableCard support. That said, the reasons stated aren't entirely accurate.

The problem with the original OpenCable (CableCard) standard was that it only supported one-way communication. That meant you could watch encrypted channels, but your TV or DVR couldn't communicate with the cable company to request guide information, VOD, PPV, or new channels delivered using SDV technology. Consumer electronics manufacturers had to provide their own guide, their own VOD service, etc -- that's what TiVo does, but this can be a costly proposition. TV manufacturers halted all CableCard implementation after it became apparent that some large cable providers were going to make extensive use of SDV to deliver new HD channels, which the original OpenCable (CableCard) standard could not directly support.

[TiVo recently came up with a USB adapter and new software as a workaround to support SDV, but that wasn't really a choice for TV makers, who cannot easily update their products to support new adapters and devices.]

The True2Way standard was created to address the limitations in the original OpenCable (CableCard) standard. True2Way equipment uses the same CableCard to decrypt your encrypted channels, but it has extra hardware and software support for two-way communication; it allows cable companies to download software to your TV or retail STB so you can access all of their services (incl. VOD, PPV, and SDV channels) with the same interface you get on their box. More specifically, the True2Way device incorporates a bidirectional receiver and a Java virtual machine to run a Java version of the cable company's software, much like Java applications run inside your web browser.

For this to work, you need a TV or STB with True2Way capability, and you need a cable provider that actually offers the True2Way software in your area. At the moment, True2Way service is available in only a small percentage of markets, but providers like Time Warner and Comcast expect to make it available everywhere by the end of 2009. Most major television manufacturers have declared plans to incorporate True2Way receivers into their products once cable companies have widely deployed the software to make it work. By the end 2010, the majority of new TVs sold are expected to feature a True2Way receiver with a CableCard slot.

The eventual goal is to eliminate CableCards entirely, and replace them with downloadable conditional access (DCAS). With this functionality, TVs, STBs, and DVRs purchased at retail would effectively have the CableCard built-in; once connected, the TV or STB which would download all the necessary authorization software from the cable company. Once the authorization software was downloaded from the cable company, the customer could call to active service. [This would eliminate the need for the service visit to install a CableCard.] Once service was activated, the cable company's True2Way software would download automatically into the TV/STB/DVR to provide the same interface, guide, and VOD as the cable company STB. Look for all new TVs to support this functionality within five years.

AlanLinde wrote:

a) why the basic service non-local channels are encrypted since one cannot get them without the FIOS connection

Many FiOS customers subscribe to locals on FiOS for $12.99/mo. If the cable channels were in the clear, those customers would be able to recieve cable channels that they don't pay for.

There's also the issue of content protection. There is no effective way to copy-protect channels that are in the clear. Some content providers demand encryption and copy protection as part of their carriage contracts.

Then there's the issue of billing. Almost every content provider -- even those that do not care about copy protection -- demand to know exactly how many customers can tune their channel. This number is used to calculate how much Verizon owes (ex: $2.40 for every customer with access to ESPN). This number is also used to calculate programming fees owed to Verizon; a number of the home shopping networks actually pay Verizon, per customer, to carry their channels. For those reasons, Verizon would not want to understate or overstate these numbers.

Ultimately, the issue of encryption vs. non-encryption will be a moot issue, as I alluded to above. It is only an issue now because were are still at an early stage in the digital transition so few TVs have CableCard functionality (or equivalent) built-in.

Message Edited by KenAF on 12-30-2008 08:02 PM

G-Pon

The present cable card system will not support the consumer’s needs for the (even fairly near) future. VOD, media guides, pay-pre-view, and many popular things that have grown to be a normal expectation of video in America just can’t continue to be made to work effectively with the present cable cards.

Of the 2 possible/proposed cable 1.0 card replacements ideas I think cable card 2.0 one will loose out over the other one: DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Systems) which can be made more feature-rich and is software based not hardware based. But who knows? Maybe a third product will emerge.

The original mandate for the card by the FCC was not to be sure a credit card sized piece of hardware is available to all, but rather to assure key programming is available to all income levels of cable consumers, and assure an even playing field. This is fair and I’m sure all the major cable providers including Verizon would agree and continue to comply. But using 2 cable cards in a TiVo connected to a cable company’s service to by-pass their product offerings and income opportunities is kinda’ not what the original intent of the cable card was, and one would have to understand the desire of the industry in general to move away from that.

Cable TV is a for profit business (sorry).

The part of the FCC directive relevant to this discussion did not even make mention of the cable card. It says: "...assure the commercial availability to consumers of multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, of converter boxes, interactive communications equipment, and other equipment used by consumers to access multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, from manufacturers, retailers, and other vendors not affiliated with any multichannel video programming distributor."

Only the future will tell what we will get, actually my money is on the emergence of that third product idea: TVs that have fully integrated set-top-boxes.

I don’t mind posting this as a CORRECTION: Cable companies (including Verizon) will continue to abide by all FCC requirements including but not limited to the cable card.

G-Pon

We sort of got into a political discussion and stepped away from our rabbit ears friend AlanLinde and his needs.

I have checked with a few others at Verizon and it seems there may be challenges when placing the following order scenario: customer has only one TV and wants only a Cable Card and not a Set-Top-Box on the premises at all.

The computer system for placing orders for customers I guess must be optimized for the average home, not the scenario above, and it might take a more experienced than employee to navigate it to avoid the experience dvhart had (see above post). Persons being told there is no other option than at least one set-top-box should politely & firmly insist otherwise. My Apology for that. I am bringing this to the attention of my superiors.

For AlanLinde, who got more than he bargained for when he started this post!... The older TVs will benefit from the Verizon set-top-box which will assure the new digital content he is hearing so much about is translated to a Coax/Analog output that his TV can use. Just be sure to tell the ordering professional that you have an older TV with a Coax input only. I don’t know if we still offer the DTC-700 box for free, but a free government supplied/subsidized converter box, or a cable card would get AlanLinde and households like his going just fine too. To get VOD and TV Guide data a full featured set-top box would be needed, like our 2500.

dvhart

The computer system for placing orders for customers I guess must be optimized for the average home, not the scenario above, and it might take a more experienced than employee to navigate it to avoid the experience dvhart had (see above post). Persons being told there is no other option than at least one set-top-box should politely & firmly insist otherwise. My Apology for that. I am bringing this to the attention of my superiors.

I'm afraid that isn't very helpful. I spent TWO HOURS on the phone with someone in billing and she said she asked several other people while she had me on hold, and she couldn't find a way to NOT order an STB. So being persistent isn't sufficient. What words do we the customer need to use in order to tell the phone center people how to navigate your system in order to remove the hardware without cancelling the service?

AlanLinde

Thanks G-Pon; at least dvhart should be able to rest a bit easier.

In my case I do not intend to migrate my ancient analog sets to the digital era. My intention is to buy one or more new hd capable sets. I did not realize that there is an inexpensive option to receive only the local broadcast channels; that does explain why the non-broadcast channels in the 'essential' package are encrypted.

Nevertheless I would much prefer not to have a stb; I have no desire to avail myself of the additional functions those supply. I just want to watch good quality images with a minimum of equipment and cost. I am aware of the relative inflexibility of cablecards & of next generation options – but again that's not an issue.

For me, it is a real pity that manufacturers appear almost to have ceased supplying the card option – but I suppose I can't blame Verizon for that.

If anyone can help with finding cablecard TV sets, I'd appreciate it.

AlanLinde

Oops – I didn't see the dvhart response before I posted!

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